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Author Topic: ID help with classical style vase please  (Read 4115 times)

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bfg

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2013, 09:49:44 AM »
John thanks for that additional info.

I have looked and felt around the neck I cannot find any marks or numbers.

Yes please, if you can track them down I would love to see the pictures you speak of

Mel


Offline Paul S.

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2013, 10:34:25 AM »
quote from m..............."Opaline is a discussion for another day lol, I'm currently gathering references and sources on the definition of it".
I look forward to reading your thesis m...........but are you sure you can fit it all in.  ;)               For me this whole area of opalin/opaline/opalescent/opal/alabaster/vitrified remains confusing, and would be very useful to have these clarified, even if it transpires that some are no more than synonyms.        Apparently the word opaline didn't see the light of day until 1907, or at least so one of my books says, and I notice that Manley doesn't use the word (at least it's not in his index).

Sorry this is a bit 'off track'  -  delete if you want to. :)


Offline flying free

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2013, 11:22:43 AM »
to Mel -- yes it is.
I would like a second opinion to confirm mine but I am more than 99% sure your vase is also :)
m

to Paul
Please could you quote references when you make statements :) especially one as important as 'Apparently the word opaline didn't see the light of day until 1907'.  Thanks.
I've formulated a post with references etc, and am just refining it and will then start a thread on it :)

I can't speak for Manley.  I don't have it and don't use it because quite a lot of information has come to light since he did the book.

m



bfg

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2013, 01:22:43 PM »
I think apart from the foot & rim wave bands the sequence of neck bands swings it for me. If only I could find that shape of vase firmly attributed to Webb I'd be a happy girl m

Mel


Offline Paul S.

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 02:45:40 PM »
hello m........ :)
my main reasons for omitting book references now, is that I'm aware a  lot of people simply don't have the books  -  which is probably the reason they come to the GMB - I did previously quote my sources (and I'm a great believer in doing so) but what's the point if it means nothing to 98% of viewers :)
The details of the book to which I was referring are.......'Skira Dictionary of Modern Decorative Arts 1851 - 1942' by Valerio Terraroli published in Milan in 2001 - page 148 (English text).
Other books that provide some degree of reference to this subject (in no particular order, but with English text only) are..... Harold Newman (dictionary) - Mark West (which believe you now have) - Muriel M. Miller 'Popular Collectables Glass' - Felice Melhman - Barbara Morris - Hajdamach - Gulliver - Phoebe Phillips (Editor) 'The Encyclopeadia of Glass  - Dan Klein & Ward Lloyd 'The History of Glass' and at least one of the standard Miller's large format books plus internet sources etc.

From memory think I did offer you a copy of Manley - you could be right about the errors - I really don't know whether the critiscisms of his book are valid - but I would have thought that reference to his book was essential in any discussion of the subject of which we're speaking.

I'm doubtful that the way to go with this matter is an open forum inviting comments from all and sundry  -  all you will end up with is a variety of opinions (including the usual differences from the two sides of the pond), and we'll be back to square one.
Why don't you evaluate the book information, come to a conclusion, and then publish the definitive meanings for each word............and just let them dare to criticize you. ;D

P.S.  By the way, you're still welcome to my spare copy of Manley ;)

P.P.S.     If you want to communicate with me, off Board, please free to do so. :)


Offline John Smith

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 03:41:46 PM »
... having only been computer literate for 3 years, I have always relied upon books and other peoples teachings, however even the best of books have at times since been proved to be inaccurate in certain areas. Many online referencies are completely inaccurate too.  One book in particular which was always recognised as "The Bible" in terms of Lalique Perfume bottles, has become known as having wrong information within it. Authors, I am sure all act in the best of good faiths, and when without any other written documents to go by, will of course base their own research upon their own opinion, as so-called 'leaders' of their field... I do not suppose that this can be helped, and neither can everything be 100% positive unless of course factual attribution/evidence exists...

Allegedly, many of the early Millers Guides are wrong, not to mention some of the attributions that are made on television by some "experts."

With the above in mind, "I" have always believed it to be the case that "Opaline" was only ever produced in France. At least to begin with...

But, I did read that in a book!  :-)   


Offline Paul S.

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 04:19:32 PM »
am sure you're right John............and I certainly wouldn't want to under-rate any contribution from m which would be very useful - so look forward to enlightenment anytime soon.
I've highjacked this thread too much anyway, so apologies to Mel and m. :)


Offline flying free

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 05:24:36 PM »
'hello m........
my main reasons for omitting book references now, is that I'm aware a  lot of people simply don't have the books  -  which is probably the reason they come to the GMB - I did previously quote my sources (and I'm a great believer in doing so) but what's the point if it means nothing to 98% of viewers 
'

The point is that someone else somewhere will have the book and will be able to verify or argue with your comment. Or if someone else later on has a different view and can evidence their view, it helps to know the resource for a conflicting fact so the evidence can be double checked.

 Otherwise one could just say anything and it will appear as a stated fact -

Of  course 'I think...', 'I believe...' 'It's my opinion...' all have their place in a discussion,  and it's from those views and the knowledge expressed therein, and the sharing and disseminating of information, that fact can  be formed (and even those may change over time as more information becomes available on a subject).

But it is my opinion, that having a verification for a stated comment makes the difference between something being an evidenced fact or just a personal opinion. 
m




Offline Paul S.

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 07:26:28 PM »
quote................."Otherwise one could just say anything and it will appear as a stated fact" .........hope you aren't suggesting m that I'd ever say 'just anything' - at least not when quoting from a book.

quote..............."The point is that someone else somewhere will have the book and will be able to verify or argue with your comment".......a fair point m, but only if there is another GMB member who actually owns a copy of this book and is prepared to join the discussion.

o.k. - hands up then please...........who else on the GMB owns a copy of the Skira dictionary :)             Whilst my personal opinion on attribution/provenace may at times be very suspect, I think we all need to be 100% honest when quoting from books  -  there'd be no point in being otherwise - whether we give the reference or not.

I seemed rather alone in the days when I gave references, and got the impression that most people weren't really bothered if I did or not  -  as I've said, quite possibly because few people consider it useful to buy the books....................that is apart from you and me ;)  :-*



Offline flying free

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Re: ID help with classical style vase please
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2013, 07:51:20 PM »
'The point is that someone else somewhere will have the book and will be able to verify or argue with your comment.'
that was not my whole point.  My whole point was as below.  I should have put a comma after comment :)

'The point is that someone else somewhere will have the book and will be able to verify or argue with your comment. Or if someone else later on has a different view and can evidence their view, it helps to know the resource for a conflicting fact so the evidence can be double checked.'

and it illustrates my next comment beautifully

I'm sure people are honest when quoting from a book.  However, people do not quote an entire page or chapter when quoting from a book and it has to be said, quotes can be misconstrued by being taken out of context.  For example, it may be that someone writes a sentence, but then later in the chapter revisits that comment to make more or something different of it.  This doesn't get quoted, so the original sentence can be out of context.  That sentence might then be repeated and become a 'fact'.
I have actually come across an example of  this exact point in relation to the comment - Opaline is only made in France.
m

 

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