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Author Topic: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?  (Read 2458 times)

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Offline Baked_Beans

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2013, 05:00:41 PM »
Hi m ,

Very interesting topic, thanks very much !

In Peter Dreiser's and Jonathan Matcham's book 'Techniques of Glass Engraving' 2nd edition , he mentions Intaglio engraving and he says the word Intaglio means (to an engraver)... ' a design which has been modelled negatively into glass, so as to give the illusion of standing out in positive relief '   He also states that 'some confusion may arise from this term, for there is a bold type of decorative engraving produced by small stone wheels (part way toward glass cutting) that was developed at Stourbridge during the late nineteenth century which is also well known as intaglio. It is quite seperate in form and technique .'

Good luck ! Cheers, Mike.
Mike


Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2013, 05:19:10 PM »
Thanks Mike :)
 I cannot find my first edition of that book, most annoying, I seem to have lost it.  I understand what is said, but the cameo on these pieces is cut in relief with the blue and white layers being raised against the clear background.  Also the veins on the leaves and the stems are also in relief on the blue. not engraved to look as though it is relief.  I shall go and do a quick search to look at antique glass with intaglio engraving and have another look at the differences.

on another note -

This vase with a goat and vines and grapes was sold at Sotheby's in 2007 attributed to Franz Zach.
I can see  similarities with my decanter in this piece.  If this piece is indeed Franz Zach (there are similarities with this piece and another signed Franz Zach vase which I guess is what they base their attribution on) then, despite what the V&A have said, I think he has to be in the running as a possible for my decanter.
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2007/an-important-private-collection-from-hanover-am1020/lot.962.html

My decanter is incredibly well made and decorated.  There is no evidence of any shoddy work at all, it is quite impeccably made and engraved/cut and finished.

I have now searched well in excess I estimate of 3000 images of bechers, flakons, decanters, vases, pokals and steins etc, through various auction houses, museum collections and books going back a number of years.    There are only three makers names that come up and they are Karl Pfohl, Franz Zach and Ernst Simon (n.b. I've not found the reference for Ernst Simon's piece in the Corning as it was previously attributed to possibly Franz Zach).  They may or may not be the only makers.
but
Whilst it may be the case that the unknowns are always in the majority, and that does need to be borne in mind, these two layers red or blue over clear matt cameo glass remain incredibly rare pieces, museum pieces as far as I can see.

The three layer matt cameo pieces are even rarer so far. Those with the grapes and vine  I have found so far are  two bechers, my flakon(decanter) and one( possibly two - picture too indistinct to see properly) steins. 

With regard the bechers, of the leaves that it is possible to see on the photos they do not have the curled up edges that the leaves on my decanter do, and one of the photos is not a good one so it's difficult to be sure, but the smaller one when placed side by side with my decanter in a photo is very similar and should certainly be a contender for being made by the same hand.

There are  a few others in three layer, one in the Corning, and the few sold at Sotheby's. 
And those are the only pieces I have found.  That is it.  Of course there may well be others out there in private collections, but on the evidence so far, they are like hen's teeth.
It is possible to see many similarities between the different 'types' or 'groups' of this matt cameo, but there are so few differences that on current investigations I do not believe there were lots of people making these pieces. 
I'm still waiting for two books to arrive that may have some more information in them.  I'll post if they do.
m


Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2013, 06:50:27 PM »
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51915.msg294386.html#msg294386
information on the Josephinenhutte question posed earlier in the thread is now on the link above.
m


Offline Baked_Beans

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2013, 07:50:47 AM »
Hi m,

You could always email pics to the Passau Glass Museum with a suggestion that your study piece could possibly have been made at Josephine. The base (and lid) of the eagle goblet has thick branches for the 'vine?' that look quite similar in style to the thick branches on your example but it's difficult to see the detail.

Just a thought... ;)

Ta, Mike.
Mike


Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2013, 08:32:22 AM »
thanks Mike
I've emailed the Passau Museum in the past and never had any replies  :) 
The only museum who consistently reply and are fantastic are the V&A.
They suggested emailing museums in Germany but I've not because generally I don't get a response.

Once my book arrives I will have purchased a fair amount of the Passau books - perhaps if there is nothing in there that helps I may email them and ask as a longshot. 
But actually I'm finding it very interesting looking at the pieces I've found and linking them to each other through similarities in the engraving technique.  There are very few marked and only those by Franz Zach that I've found.  The rest are attributed.
m


Offline Baked_Beans

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2013, 10:43:55 AM »
It's good to know you are still able to order the book through the museum which  looks wonderful  ......I've just had a virtual walk about and now feel like sitting down !

Here's the Josephinenhutte room........

http://www.glasmuseum.de/fileadmin/Media_Glasmuseum/panoramen/Josephinenhuette/Panorama_Glasmuseum_%285%29_web.swf

There is one decanter, pinky-red over clear, that looks quite similar in shape to yours (can't see the base though) on one of the top shelves (but then I guess it's quite a common shape).

I've learnt so much just by following this thread and thanks again.... it's an education just to see how you are researching your lovely piece  :)

Cheers Mike.
Mike


Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2013, 10:57:51 AM »
thank you for the direct link :)
the Eagle goblet and the decanter (and possibly the other lidded piece) shown in the flyer are in this room here
http://www.glasmuseum.de/fileadmin/Media_Glasmuseum/panoramen/Gravuren/Panorama_Glasmuseum_%286%29_web.swf
these seem to be the only pieces in this reliefschnitte technique that I can see.
enjoy
My Walter Spiegl book has arrived ....  I wish I spoke and read German to a reasonable level :o  ... it's going to be some time before I find the relevent bits in the text.
m


Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2013, 12:39:43 PM »
One of the books has arrived:
Walter Spiegl 'Glas des Historismus' 1980 Klinkhardt & Braunschweig

It has a number of these pieces in, unfortunately mostly in black and white pictures - they lose their appeal and impact massively without the colour to show the depth of the engraving and cutting.  It also makes it very hard for me to compare techniques of engraving between each of them.

He puts them in a chapter called 'Uberfangreliefschnitt' ( I understand that translation as Overlay Relief Cut).  This falls before his shorter chapter on 'Cameo' where 3 pieces of English cameo glass are featured from Thomas Webb.

He features 21 pieces in total as photographs, in a variety of pieces ranging from portrait bechers to pokals, all figural or animal. Many of which I have found online in colour - I've found others that are not featured in his book.

Page 184 top of page it says (if my translation is correct):
This overlay relief cut technique was only executed on hollow glasses between 1845 and 1865.
He mentions a goblet with a cover depicting a musician and a gentleman dates to 1849 in the Munchener StadtMuseum, as well as a red overlay relief cut Bierkrug with a knight on flanked by three shields in the same museum, and says the goblet with musician and gentleman is the first dated example.
I think there is possibly an error in the Nagel catalogue on the Carl Gunther Chinoiseriedekor becher which they dated to 1835 – need to come back to that.

He goes on to say (again I think, this is my translation using google):
‘In 1849, the Harrachsche Hutte sent in this technique decorated Glaser (I think it says two pieces but not sure) at the Vienna National Cabinet Factory Products  (I think this must have been an exhibition) as probably the first successful results in the application of innovative engraving technology’
Further informationt says  a becher with two dogs(pictured in the book) in Prager Kunstgewerbemuseum is dated 1853 (It has a date inscribed on it) and mentions the Franz Zach piece I’ve already shown, in the V&A dated 1855.
There are Karl Pfohl pieces dated 1860.



With regards the three layer overlay (blue on white on clear) there is only one example in the book. None like my decanter/flakon.  The one example is a lidded goblet that is so remarkably similar to the one with the maiden on in the Corning, that I think it could be it's 'pair'.  There are differences but the style and shape etc are the quite remarkably similar.  It apparently was in the R. von Strasser collection at that time.

There are two notable other pieces.  One is a cobalt blue overlay of two horses but on a 'milchglas' background - it's beautiful even in black and white (Franz Ullman 1890).  The other is a superb overlay cameo piece of blue overlay on clear, I think it says from Hans Makart, engraving relief overlay by Wilhelm Fritsche Steinschonau, signed '19 F 27' Glasmuseum Kamenicky Senov.

He discusses on page 205 a red overlay relief cut becher on Milchglas in naive style and says it is singed Hetzel 1890.  I think he says of it, that the naive style indicates the engraver was not familiar with this technique.  Another reason to think that whilst the list of Pfohl, Zach, and Simon may not be exhaustive or complete, there may not have been many engravers executing these pieces.

Spiegl has imparted a lot of information in this chapter, that I do not understand.  I'm going to try using google translate for various sections to see what else I might learn.  Please note the excerpts I have translated are part of a very long chapter and for exact reference please see the book sourced at the top of this post, as I may be not completely correct in my understanding.

So as far as I can see, these are definitely much earlier pieces than the English cameo glass 'movement'. And in my very humble opinion they are cameo glass and should be included in glass books on general glass over the years,  as examples of cameo glass from Bohemia executed from the 2nd quarter of the 19th century.
m


Offline Baked_Beans

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2013, 01:29:06 PM »
This is a very similar style of engraving to the leaves, grapes and branches .....sorry if you have seen it before or mentioned it already above.....

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2089227

Cheers, Mike.
Mike


Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2013, 01:32:20 PM »
ooh thank you!!!! no I had not found it - it's like the pink stein and I think the engraver is the same as my flakon.  Excellent, thanks so much :)
m

 

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