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Author Topic: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?  (Read 2579 times)

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Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2013, 10:27:40 AM »
This piece is a superb example of cameo glass and whilst a different subject, looks remarkably similar to the chinoiserie becher id'd as by Carl Guenther in the Nagel catalogue with a date given of 1835, that I referred to in a post a few up.
It is mounted with silver.
http://www.waddingtons.ca/auctions/2012/12-12-deco/?w_i_id=82675&w_item_depth=182


Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2013, 12:07:33 AM »

I’ve found a description of pieces with a similar technique to mine as being cameo glass (but only single overlay and figural).  Apart from a reference in a Miller's guide that appeared under the heading Cameo Glass, this is the first time I've found a reference to these items as being cameo cut and with some detail in the description.

Please bear in mind, that in the beerstein.net  link that I give below, the author’s pictures are not numerically labelled plates, although he actually refers to them as fig1,fig 2 etc.
 I also think the author has made an error in the caption of the middle glass in fig 2 (picture of three glasses together in one plate.)  btw,this fig 2 plate appears next to the plate with a piece of blue on clear glass with a picture of a man on it he references it as fig 1 in his description. Based on his description I think the caption for fig 2 should read 'intaglio cut, cameo cut, shaded wheel cut'. as a description of the three pieces, not ‘intaglio cut, intaglio cut, shaded wheel cut’.

Anyway, if you scroll down to the descriptions paragraphs, under the heading 'Overlays' you will see a sub heading 'Cameo cut' where these two pieces are described (fig 1 and middle piece in fig 2)
http://www.beerstein.net/articles/bsj-4c.htm

The author says:
'Cameo Cut

The cameo cut utilizes the color of the overlay even more than the cut to clear method does. The cameo cut involves cutting away the background to the clear layer underneath and leaving the scene to show in the overlay color. The subject is cut to different depths in the outer layer only, creating various shades of the outer layer’s color. (Figures 1 and 2, center) These various shades contrasted with the clear layer underneath to create a photo-like engraved image. '
He adds ‘Sometimes, copper wheel cutting is supplemented by polishing the cut (Figure 3). When the copper disc cuts into the surface, it leaves a frosted finish. On occasion, the artist would polish part or all of the cut design to create a shiny contrast.


I cannot comment on his authority on glass and glass techniques, but he also says
'Few cutters had the ability and experience to execute this method of decoration successfully, so cameo cut pieces are rare and expensive.'

It seems to me, from what I have read in various references, that creating a piece of overlaid or cup cased glass is not particularly easy and, given the different colours of glass, is subject to the stresses of contraction rates and the annealing process.  I also found this snippet about the years taken by Boston and Sandwich to perfect their overlay glass technique:
‘Boston  and Sandwich began experimenting with overlay techniques in the 1840’s but was not til the late 1850’s they had perfected their techniques.’ -Source ‘Notable Acquisitions at the Art Institute of Chicago’

 I think the difficulty involved in producing the blanks is the case regardless of what era the piece has been created. 
However, bearing in mind the pieces being discussed on this thread were made between 1835 and 1860 ish, where cased or overlaid glass only started being produced a few years earlier, it seems to me the blanks would be fairly ‘precious’ … even before the decoration is even begun on the piece.  i.e. perhaps they would only be given to select skilled makers to decorate because there has to be an added risk to the glass once the carving starts?

I have one more name to add to the list and that is of Ernst Simon who carved a magnificent piece of blue on clear for Josephinenhutte.  It is a piece in the Corning here
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-putti-hunting-wild-boar#.UTE_3jCeN_U
It is a huge piece again, but the description the Corning gives explains the technique and the difficulty of carving very well:

‘Description
Colorless and cobalt blue glass; blown, tooled, applied, cased, engraved. Large goblet with a bucket shaped bowl cut blue-to-colorless with the scene of the putti hunting boar with spears in hand and surrounded by leaves and branches. the stem consists of several merese, an engraved knop, and an engraved inverted baluster atop a circular engraved foot. The lid is also blue cut-to-colorless with the leaf motif continued and a finial of merese, knop and inverted baluster shape with a raspberry prunt on top.
Label Text
“Historical revival” does not necessarily content itself with the slavish copy of bygone styles. Instead, surprisingly new results can be achieved by the combination of styles from entirely different sources. This goblet is a meticulous copy of the most accomplished type of Nuremberg vessels of the 17th century. However, the decoration of the bowl and cover refer to ancient Roman cameo glass. The latter posed an enormous challenge for Biedermeier glass factories in Bohemia and Silesia: the engraving required the complete mastery of carving into the outer layer of colored glass, turning it lighter as more glass was removed. Also, the glassmakers had to solve the problem of tensions in the glass caused by incompatible expansion coefficients of different glass colors. The Josephinenhütte seems to have started its attempts in the mid-1840s, and employed in Ernst Simon (1817–1894) an exceptionally gifted glass engraver. He transformed the ornamental subject into a vivacious scene, and emphasized the contrast between the playful putti—sweet chubby children that have ancient ancestors and became popular in 16th-century arts—and their stern determination to hunt down a wild boar.’



Notwithstanding that my piece and similar are not of the size and complexity of the Exhibition pieces, they must still have been expensive when they were produced.
Therefore I presume that if they had been prolifically made there might be more available around and about.  And there aren’t.  The Corning seems to only have three, the V&A one.  The others I’ve seen are all either in museums or private collections or being sold as high end glass for matching prices. 
Therefore, at the time these Bohemian pieces were made, and bearing in mind their fragility, I’m just not sure there were that many people capable of working on them.
 I think the fact that I’ve found only 20 pieces in total bears this out (only five possibly 6 of those done with double overlay like mine).

So just coming back to Frank's comment above, I am aware of the ‘glassworkers who are skilled at their work yet never become known or famous' and the danger of attributing everything to the teacher, but based on my current research, I feel it is also possible this group of 1st to 3rd quarter 19th century Bohemian cameo glass is relatively scarce - and there may only have been a select group responsible for producing it.   

As I’ve said all along, I’m open to correction  :)



Offline flying free

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2013, 10:15:55 AM »
My apologies for a couple of errors -

I have a  couple of corrections to my original long post:

These two pieces I linked to in the Corning are not id'd as Karl Pfohl but  attributed as 'Karl Pfohl probably'

http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-5#.US0uuTCeN_V


http://www.cmog.org/artwork/goblet-896?sm_actor_name=Pfohl%252C%2520Karl&sort=bs_has_image%20desc%2Cscore%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&object=1#.US0rQTCeN_V

A gremlin in my typing, this piece sold by Sotheby's had no attribution and was not id'd as by Karl Pfohl in their sale listing:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/property-from-the-collection-of-carl-desantis/lot.205.lotnum.html

and one correction to my long post above:

I commented that I'd found a reference to these being described under a Cameo heading in a Miller's book.  This was incorrect, the piece in question I'd found was in fact not described in Miller's as being cameo but came under a heading of 'Flashed and Cased Glass'
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1cXb-wzy74C&pg=PA120&dq=overlay+glass+19th+century&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xJYsUemDBuLW0QXd_oD4Bg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=overlay%20glass%2019th%20century&f=false


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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2013, 08:52:20 PM »
I'm assuming the Corning have their identification correct but I've now seen this piece identified at the Corning as by Ernst Simon and at Fischer auctions as by Franz Zach  :-\
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-putti-hunting-wild-boar#.UT5CgByeNu4

http://www.auctions-fischer.de/selling/artists/zach-franz-paul.html?L=1%20%3Fiframe%3Dtrue&objekt=41&cHash=26a3c8a52c

The Fischer auction say it has an illegible name signed in transparent enamel on the foot.
Fischer is given as a source for the Corning description - I'm confused.
m



Offline Frank

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2013, 03:14:59 AM »
Well, the whole concept of 'Cameo cut' is a piece of dung! Cameo is simply layered glass that has has some removed to create a design. You can do that with acid, with a wheel (intaglio relates to wheel size) or you can do it by scraping glass away with hand tools.

Yes, overlaying colours requires skill, that is what glassmakers possess... seems you his on some superficial accounts there ;)
Frank A.
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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 09:57:52 AM »
I presume you are referring back to the description on the Beerstein site?  :) Yes I think the focus/knowledge of that site is 'Steins' per se, rather than the materials used in making them.
I agree with you on the terminology and how it should be used, but the sentiment of what he says remains I think? 
Also, it's a site I use a lot when looking at antique German and Bohemian glass, because steins, bechers, pokals are the type of glass that was quite often being made 18th/19th century.  So going to a specific collector site is a good  way to find pieces with  different glass techniques that may not be found when looking at an 'art glass' collection.

'Yes, overlaying colours requires skill, that is what glassmakers possess...'
however not many make cameo glass and certainly not mid 19th century as far as I can find.  And according to comments from various sources, including  from the Corning, the V&A and the report on the Boston and Sandwich overlay glass, there appears to be some degree of difficulty, (presumably more difficulty ensued when they first started making overlay glass again in the 19th century) in ensuring the success of  overlay  glass because of the different colours used - and   likewise using the cupped glass method?

I'm waiting for my copy of Das Bohmische Glas Band III to arrive.  I'll post if there is anything similar in it.
This is costing me a fortune in books  ;D
m




Offline cubby01

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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2013, 03:04:35 PM »
I've found three engraved cameo pieces dating to 1845/50 ish and with the overlay decoration, but none have three layers, only two, being the blue cut to clear with the cameo engraving.  One was on red.  The scrolls decoration on the pieces seem very similar to this.  But two were signed and this is not.

Neat vase!   Here's a link to a similar double overlay vase.  There are some similarities in design theam and the period is consistent.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10028641

(My apologies if the link was previously posted and I missed it.  There's a lot to read in this thread :))
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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2013, 11:13:29 PM »
Hi, thanks for taking the time to read the thread and look for pieces that have the vine pattern.
The one you link to is a double overlay but the decoration has been engraved into the top layer to leave the underneath white layer showing as the pattern.  It's a different result to the raised relief decoration of cameo, but it's a stunning effect isn't it? 
Thanks again :)

I just thought I'd link another style of Bohemian cameo glass - this dated to c1860 produced at Neuwelt.  It's a cameo glass stoppered flakon, white overlay over a red transparent glass, with the white overlay being cut into flowers and leaves pattern and then gilded and enamelled.  Id'd as produced at Neuwelt. Reference source given is Lit.: G. Höltl (Hrsg.): Das Böhmische Glas 1700-1950, Band III, Passau 1995, Kat. III.15.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166331

In the same sale another grape and vine double overlay cameo glass becher in blue on white on clear (similar to the one I reference on page 2 which was originally in the Ludwig collection and sold in 2012 through Dr Fischer auctions).  This one is 1cm smaller than the previous one:
Euro 700- Euro 1180 starting price Euro 700 (Sale date mar 17 2007 Dr Fischer Auction)
Description is 'Böhmen, um 1860 Farbloses Glas weiß und blau doppelt überfangen. Geschälter Stand. Mittig eingezogene Wandung mit umlaufendem Weinranken-Fries in Farbschichtgravur auf mattiertem Fond. Gebrauchsspuren. Abgesetzter Lippenrand. Im Boden gravierte Inschrift "Andenken". '
This one  is described as having 'Andeken (souvenir)engraved on the base.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166364
no reference so I'm not holding out much hope that my copy of Band III is going to produce any references for my piece.
Am thinking mine may have been described as a 'Flakon'?

m



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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2013, 11:44:27 PM »
I've just found some pictures from the Passau Glass Museum that appear to be the same as the decanter I linked to above                                            ( http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166331 )  , id'd as being produced at Neuwelt.  The pieces in the museum are two tall stoppered decanters and a tall goblet and are in a cabinet with a label saying Josephinenhutte.
m


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Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2013, 01:39:03 PM »
I have found a different reference to this technique being cameo work -
In a Sotheby's listing from 2006 Lot 534 in The Great Exhibitions Sale, seen on this link for two 'armorial goblets' (see link - my underlining) it says:

'NOTE
A notable decorator of blue and ruby encased and overlay glass, much of Franz Paul Zach (1820-1881) work was undertaken in Munich for the Frankfurt and Würzburg-based firm of Steigerwald, where he lived from 1844 until his death in 1881.

Examples of his work in the new method of acid-cameo were shown at the World's Fairs between 1851 and 1873 (see P.von Lichtenberg, Glasgravuren des Biedermeier, pp.298-305).'


http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/f-franz-paul-zach-a-pair-of-large-bohemian-acid-1-c-26w746w738




I have another question :
Further to my comment here regarding differences in identification
'I'm assuming the Corning have their identification correct but I've now seen this piece identified at the Corning as by Ernst Simon and at Fischer auctions as by Franz Zach 
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-putti-hunting-wild-boar#.UT5CgByeNu4

http://www.auctions-fischer.de/selling/artists/zach-franz-paul.html?L=1%20%3Fiframe%3Dtrue&objekt=41&cHash=26a3c8a52c

The Fischer auction say it has an illegible name signed in transparent enamel on the foot.
Fischer is given as a source for the Corning description - I'm confused.
m
'

does anyone have the Josephinenhutte book with the blue and white lidded pokal on the front with an eagle stem?  That piece was sold by Sotheby's in  2003 as a Russian piece with the following explanation:

'
'A large and rare Russian engraved blue-cased goblet and cover circa 1860
MEASUREMENTS
62cm., 24 3/8in.
DESCRIPTION
the funnel bowl finely engraved with the winged figures of Cupid and Psyche seated on a bed, a bow, quiver and lyre to one side, above a formal band of trefoils, against a matt ground, the stem formed as a carved imperial eagle, the domed foot and cover engraved with a meandering foliate branch, below a pointed leaf-capped finial
For a goblet of the same size and of similar inspiration, engraved by the same hand and bearing this distinctive eagle stem, see that sold Sotheby's London, 19th November 1996, lot 53 (£68,000). This example and the present lot are the only goblets of this extraordinary construction to come to light so far.

The design for a large (59cm. high) enamelled armorial glass with white overlay - 'ein Adlerpokal' - which includes a stem with an almost identical carved or moulded eagle, is illustrated by G.Pazaurek, Gläser der Empire- und Biedermeierzeit, p.356, pl.348 (Archiv Waldburg-Zeil). The drawing and enamel decoration on that glass is attributed to a glass enameller called Dohnt (or Dohnat) but the author is unable to provide any further details about the decorator and does not date the drawing.

Of outstanding quality, the monumental appearance might suggest that the present lot was conceived for one of the major international exhibitions of the period. There was some suggestion that the example sold by Sotheby's in 1996 had been chosen as a Czarist gift. There are strong decorative and stylistic links between the work of Franz Zach and that example- especially in the engraved vermicelli matt ground. Zach is regarded as the leading exponent of the art of engraving blue overlay. For signed examples of his work in blue overlay see the smaller goblets sold Sotheby's London, 19th December 2002, lots 40 and 50, and lot 20 for an attributed tazza.'


Thanks - I might ask this question on a separate thread to draw attention to it.
m

 

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