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Author Topic: Etruscan design 1850 ish plate with handpainted enamel -angel orange black white  (Read 3446 times)

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I have a slight hitch   ;D

In the Harrach book 'From Neuwelt to the whole world' Mergl J. page 181, there is a footed vase, straightish sided like a tall goblet type shape.   plate 213

It has the up and down zig zag meander pattern on it, painted in the same way as my plate and the same way as that on the vase in the Hermitage Museum id'd as Russian.
 The colours on the meander pattern are on the same sides of the 3d design as my plate (I now realise two of the colours on the Russian vase meander pattern were the opposite way round to two of the colours on the meander pattern on my plate) although the meander pattern is still, I believe, the same on all three pieces.  It uses the same three colours with a dark brown on the 'shadow' face of the pattern and, as far as I can see on the Harrach one, also  the fine gilded line on the thin edge facing the viewer.

The body on the vase in the Harrach book is white opaline but is painted in the orange enamel background like my plate. It matches my plate exactly even with production processes taken into account.
 
The design is described as  -  'orange ground with white slipped figures of two Roman soldiers with added black and gold outlines'.

 I'm not quite sure what they mean about 'white slipped' because it looks to me as though the body of the soldiers is just the background white opaline of the vase and then they have been outlined (in black  and gold apparently although they look as though they are outlined in dark brown with the odd gold highlight around the shield for example) and then the orange has been painted as a background to finish around the outlines of the soldiers. 

My angel is done the same way.  The picture doesn't look as though it is the same decorator as my angel, it's a bit less 'freehand',  but that could be because there is no wear at all on the vase in the Harrach book so it may look 'cleaner/crisper' -  but the detail and delicacy of it is similar if you see what I mean (i.e it's more similar in spirit to my angel than anything like for example the transfer printed warrior on my other Etruscan Harrach vase).

The problem is the description - it says this  vase is in the Municipal Museum and Library Caslav - inv.no. CHS 47. 'Gifted by Count Johann von Harrach in 1910'. But there is no production number linking it to Harrach.

It then has a description of the vase (as I've part quoted above).  Then a new paragraph that simply says
'As noted by J. Brozova, scenes with Antique Revival figures were probably chosen from books of templates noted in the glassworks' possession already c.1835, see Passau 1995, vol III, ill.no lll 30.

I have Passau 1995 Vol lll- the vase in this Harrach books looks nothing like the vase illustrated at there source ill.no lll - and when I translated the description in that book, it doesn't state anything I can see that would describe this vase on plate 213 in the Harrach book.
 It merely describes a few pieces as a reference to the Etruscan/classical style vases that were produced for various other companies (and even when describing the jug in that book that the reference is under, it says 'probably decorated by Hoffman' i.e. it's all probably/possibly, talking about the revival of the classical style in decoration, but no definitive production numbers for either that jug or the vase I've just found in the Harrach book.

So my problem is this.  I can see that my plate and the vase in the Harrach book are from the same maker without a doubt.   I am very sure of that.
I can see that the vase in the Hermitage identified as Russian, has good similarities to my plate, enough to make me feel my plate could be Russian,  but not as close as the vase in the Harrach book. 

The vase in the Hermitage is id as Russian
and the vase in the Harrach book is not formally id'd except to say given by Count Harrach in 1910 (60 years after it was made).  With references to another book that also does not describe or state that vase is Harrach.
and
This apparently Harrach vase doesn't look the same as any other products in the Etruscan style that I've found made by Harrach and doesn't have any design features in common with them. 
And...we've been here before with Richardson's donating pieces to Broadfield House that were identified as Richardson pieces, only to discover they weren't Richardson at all.

To add to the confusion, this jug that I linked to here
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/194-russian-art-faberge-icons.html?L=1&kategorie=2&artikel=1963&L=1&cHash=372f9e9d17
was identified as Russian by Fischers. 
The Harrach book shows a vase in the same design (same colours etc as well) page 182, identified as Harrach but with no production number just a reference to how prolific they featured in the orders of two companies.

So... is it or isn't it? The first vase I referred to in the book and this vase that is like the jug has the same meader pattern as my plate  - I feel sure the first vase is the same maker for definite, but is it Russian or is it Bohemian from Harrach?
 ::)
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I have just bought a mammoth 24" (60cm) tall vase ... had to rescue it... am wondering where to hide it if it arrives in one piece  ;D
I think it must have been an exhibition piece as it is so huge.

It has a meander pattern on it that looks like my plate and is an Etruscan design.  I think it has similarities to the vase in the Hermitage but need it to get here to be able to compare to that vase and my plate. 
Hopefully it might be the 'missing link'.
 There is no sign of anything similar to it in the Harrach book, so I'm hopeful it's Russian.
And I've not found any other vases/references that have the 'flying' objects scattered around the decoration as the one in the Hermitage does.  This mammoth one also has those :)
Hope it does actually arrive as the owner is very nervous about trying to pack it, not surprisingly.  Will post pics if it does.
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http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/white-opaline-spill-vase-ca-1840/#.UnklLPnIZqM
just posting for future reference
This vase is in the Bristol museum website as Richardson - it's in Etruscan style.
Unfortunately there are no close ups of the decoration so I can't see if it's transfer printed or painted.  I think it might be tranfer printed? and the background orange handpainted over the white opaline.
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Been looking at the white glass of this plate a bit more closely and wondering if the plate is earlier than I though.
It's milch glas and just feels it could be earlier.
~Found a cup and saucer, Vienna Porcelain dated 1834 - Lot 752 here that uses the orange
https://www.dorotheum.com/auktionen/auktionstermine/aktuelle-auktionen/kataloge/list-lots/auktion/10577-osterauktion-kunst-und-antiquitaten.html
unfortunately they delete their pictures so it wont enlarge any more.
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It's taken me a while to work out what she is, but I think she's an allegorical depiction of Spring?
I came across this on another vase
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/26723027_russian-glass-pokal-ruby-cut-to-clear-covered-urn

which prompted me to look up pictures of  the angels on Alexander's Column in St Petersburg on the bas relief panels
http://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/photo/russia-saint-petersburg-bas-relief-in-high-res-stock-photography/129298725

and finally came around to thinking she might represent Spring,

This is another example:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/13470468_french-terra-cotta-allegorical-figure-of-spring
and here
http://www.artnet.com/artists/pietro-de-angelis/an-allegorical-figure-of-spring-a-EQwk-mDbVzkaEmXRHdxu7Q2


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This link is to a porcelain covered wine glass with handles in the Museum. (you can enlarge for brilliant closeups by clicking on the updown arrow symbol on the bottom right and then scrolling to enlarge the picture)

https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/916465/?lng=en

The orange enamel is identical to the colour of that on my plate (see bottom photo here for direct comparison of true colour) and is the same odd matt texture viewed in close up (see top photo for the curious enamel effect)
My plate is  milchglas and I had said previously on the thread that I thought it might date earlier having had a closer look at the glass.
This enamel is the same as my plate.  The wine glass is dated second half of the 1820's.
There is one other thing.  My plate has a completely smooth matt ground base, very flat and beautifully and finely smoothly ground.
I've seen that base before on Hyalith glass which dates to early 1830s.  I've never seen it on anything else.  It's like touching fine alabaster and is the same on the Hyalith.

I started off thinking the plate dated around 1850s but I do think now it is much earlier than that.
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all and any comments welcome - even if it is to say that you don't agree that the colour or enamel is the same?
Anyone?

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http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&assetid=473380001&objectid=68568

Opaque white glass feeding cup with heavy gilded decoration including greek key design and gilding design around white repeat pattern spaces.
Imperial Glassworks, St Petersburg Russia, dating 1780-1800
In the British Museum.

Curator comments: 'For a comparable piece with less elaborate decoration see 'Russian Glass of the 17th-20th Centuries', exh. cat. Corning Museum of Glass, Corning, New York, April-October 1990, by N. Asharina, T. Malinina, L. Kazakova, no. 18, State History Museum, inv. 674'

I have that book - the cup is the same design (shape, central hole, spout hole etc) but has different gilded decor and painting on it.

My plate also has the gilding, greek key design, white opaque glass, and resist decoration.  I think it is possible my plate could date as early as 1780.

Cup in British Museum
Item description:
Museum number

1994,0701.1

Description

Full: Front

Feeding cup; opaque-white glass; mould-blown; cylindrical with out-turned rim pierced by a small circular hole for drinking from; rim folded over to form the top of the cup, pierced in the centre with a circular hole to allow for filling with liquid; pontil smoothed off underneath resulting in a rough circular patch in centre of base; decorated with a landscape scene painted in purple on a blue ground of a ruined arch with gate, trees, a ruined circular brick tower to the right of which are two standing figures and a tree behind a broken brick wall and rocks, with trees in the background of the entire scene; '
and
'gilt Greek key motif between gilt lines near the foot and interlaced guilloche in resist on a gold band near rim; gilt line above painted scene and on rim and around central hole in top, handle partly gilt.'



http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&assetid=473380001&objectid=68568

and this plate from the Imperial Porcelain Factory has a very similar swag design around the central picture as that around the central angel on my plate
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=1478498001&objectId=26748&partId=1

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This beaker has exactly the same design of the swags, drops and dots as my plate :)

Стакан с двойными стенками Вершининский. Бахметьевский завод. Мастер А.Вершинин. Около 1800 года
A glass of the double-walled " Vershininsky ." Bahmetevsky plant . Master A.Vershinin . About 1800

http://www.nasledie-rus.ru/img/680000/682109.jpg

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