Author Topic: Another Paperweight-Quiz  (Read 8120 times)

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Offline KevinH

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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2006, 12:40:25 PM »
Thanks Nadine,

I have had another - and closer - look at the 2005 PCA Bulletin article by Paul Dunlop and I can see that there are some compelling clues pointing towards a Pantin attribution for weights that were previously thought to be "Late Clichy".

I suppose the thing that made me unsure about all this was the title for the article:
Quote
"Late Clichy", or What? A New Proposed Source of These Paperweights.
If a title states "Proposed Source", then I take it that the details are still unproven - even if the evidence as described is quite compelling.

( The way I read the article was influenced by my own ongoing investigations - such as the still-unproven facts of where and when the "Frank Eisner" flower weights were made. [See the message in the Ysart Glass forum] )

It's also interesting that in his article Paul himself raises a point of caution in suggesting the possibility of Pantin lampwork being encased by another factory. Also, he said of some millefiori weights (with coloured grounds), that might have Pantin canes, that they do look more like VSL.

This is why I really do think that as well as asking Paul Dunlop for his views, you should offer the pics and details of your weight for a future PCA Bulletin article. What we really need to see is your weight compared to the others that Paul has mentioned, but not illustrated, that could also have possible Pantin canes.

In the meantime, I would encourage everyone interested in this item to take personal research copies of the excellent photos provided and to let us know of any other examples you find that might assist this research(actual weights or images in books, catalogues and so forth).

It's a super weight and I wish I had it :D
KevinH


Offline Leni

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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2006, 07:33:45 PM »
Quote from: "KevH"
2. The "tosade" is made of small lengths of "barber pole" cane, unlike (most) VSL torsades which were continous. This is a hint at "no" for VSL.

Kulles describes VSL 'barber pole' canes as being clipped off in short strips, with a little 'flick' or hook at the end.  He also describes them as being set low down around the centre of the weight, barely visible when viewed from directly above - as in this weight.
Leni


Offline Nadine

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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2006, 07:52:47 PM »
Whilst Paul Dunlop in his article spoke about „late“ Clichy weights.
Paul Hollister wrote on page 126 of his “Encyclopedia of Paperweights”: The earliest Clichy rose centers are cylinders whose cross-section resembles a slice of lemon, or rods with a cross design.
Fig.58 in his book also shows a Clichy early garlandes example with a white rose without petals, which is very similar to the rose in my weight.
The picture is not the best, but the other canes also look like the ones in my weight.
BUT, the canes also look like the canes in the PCA article from Paul Dunlop.

The parallel filigree twist are typically for Clichy.

Now, the question is: Early or late Clichy, or Pantin ?

For VSL the weight is too heavy I think, and when I compare the shape (slightly tapered on top), it´s also uncommon for VSL.

It´s very difficult to confirm this weight for sure. I also will send a message to Larry Selman, probably he can help.
All in all I think, it´s the rarest weight I own :)

Nadine


Offline Nadine

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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2006, 09:56:03 AM »
Hello everybody,

yesterday I´ve studied some Books and found some things which will probably help to find out the origin of this weight.

I´m sure, that it is not Bohemian or Baccarat (Dupont) as no canes from this makers matches with the canes in this weight. Also I think it´s not St. Louis as I also don´t find any matching canes. At least, it´s not Venezian, English, American or Chinese. Let me know, if you think I´m wrong with this.

The remaining factorys are: early/late Clichy, St. Mande, Val. St. Lambert, Pantin.

St.Mande:
The canes in my mystery weight don´t match any of the canes shown in the book from Kulles. And also there are no similar canes in other weights I saw. Only one type of the 3 different yellow colors in my weight looks like the yellow in 2 St. Mande weights I found, but they used this color for different Canes.
Most of the St. Mande weights, which I saw in the past had a slight striation, but this weight has absolutely no suggering etc.
No one of the known St. Mande roses are similar to the rose in this weight.
St. Mande weights have a slightly concave base and normally they don´t use this kind of design for their motifs.

So, I think it´s not St. Mande.


Val St. Lambert:
Most VSL weights have a low profile and a rather low dome (Kulles). The “barber pole” canes are set in this weight, as described in Kulles book, but they are unusual for VSL in their Design, as the “barber pole” from VSL is more filigree, means the single color stripes are much thinner and also more distorted. VSL “barber pole” canes loke often as they have a white glass rod in the middle, wriggled by blue and red (sorry again, for my bad english).

The 2 known VSL roses described and shown by Kulles have both petals. They are not similar to the white rose in my weight.
The only real hint for possible VSL are the parallel filligree twists, but they are also and more often used by Clichy, too.
After studying the canes, I have to say, that the canes in my weight are to perfect for VSL, especially the canes in the two rings around the center cane.
I found one VSL weight with small red roses, but they are even bigger than the small ones in my weight (set in the yellow canes).

All in all I tend to say, my weight is not VSL.


Clichy:
Normaly most known Clichy weights have a concave base, except the newel posts, which have a flat base, when they lost their stems.
Except the rose with the cross cane in the center, and the fantastic miniature roses, I found no canes from Clichy, which are similar to my mystery weight, but I must say that all canes look a little bit like the typically Clichy canes. Also the complexity and the pastel color, which is very soft reminds me on Clichy.

Another guess was, that probably canes from two different manufactures are set in this weight?


Questionable Pantin:
The Size of the mystery weight is typically for pantin, as they only made magnum sized weights. Also the shape with the high crown speaks for Pantin. I´m unsure of the base, as most known Pantin weights always have a slightly concave base. One possibility is, that they had a problem with the pontil mark as you can see a small rest of the pontil, so that the glassworker decided to make the base flat ?

Interesting is the fact, that the yellow used in many pantin flowers is exactly the same like the yellow in the canes of my weight.
Last but not least, the PCA-Article from Paul Dunlop. If  Paul is right with his thoughts, than I would say, that this weight probably also could be attributed to Pantin.


Anyway, it´s really a very rare weight, with canes never seen in any other paperweight before.

Clichy or Pantin ?[/u][/i]
To answer this question is really very difficult. But it might be very interesting regarding the history of paperweight making and, off course, also to say something about the value of the the weight.


Have all a very sunny day! :lol:

Nadine


P.S. Till today I got no answer from Paul or Larry, but I will let you know, when I receive their oppinion.


Offline m1asmithw8s

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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2006, 11:34:08 PM »
That's quite a High profile for a Val St. Lambert.
I'm not a millefiore collector but those canes look quite unusual.
A most interesting weight indeed.


Offline dfernbach

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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2006, 12:19:59 PM »
A comment from the peanut gallery!

My mystery weight from a few weeks ago - ultimately attributed to St. Mande (I'm assuming everyone accepted that) - the clear glass had a very slight but undeniable grayish tint / haze to it that I have not seen in any of the Clichy's, St. Louis's or Baccarat's that I've seen.  I don't know if that's typical of St. Mande, and I can't tell if your weight is similar.

Also, having NEVER seen a Pantin, I don't know what their clear glass would be like.

I must say that the center cane in your weight is one of the more incredible works of art that I've seen anywhere!  Are those white points individual canes?  lampwork?  optical illusion?   :?   The 3-dimensional look is AWESOME!


Offline Nadine

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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2006, 09:21:12 PM »
Ronny again  :)

I try to visit the next meeting of the PCC, which will be held at the 10. of June in Cambridge and bring this really amazing weight with me, so that you all can take a closer look.

All the best
Ronny


Offline KevinH

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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2006, 09:59:08 PM »
It will be good to see the weight at the PCC meeting (and maybe I can get my UV lights on it, too), but it will be even better to see you again, Ronnie. It's good to have international club members visiting the meetings as well as other new and regular people.

I do hope that your youngster gets better soon and that Nadine is not too tired from also being in hospital.
KevinH


Offline Leni

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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2006, 07:46:59 AM »
Wow! :shock:  Great!    :D  I'll also look forward to seeing you again in June , Ronnie.  

And 'that' weight!   :D  Can't wait!  :wink:  :roll:

Oh, and best wishes to Nadine  and your poor little one! :shock:
Leni


Offline Nadine

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« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2006, 11:01:00 PM »
Thanks Leni and Kevh for your lovely words.

Today I´ve shown this weight to a collector in Baden Baden and his first words  are: "WOW, what a wonderful Clichy". As I ask him if he is sure with his thoughts and showed him the Paul Dunlop Article, he said, that this is one of the most interesting articles about Clichy/Pantin weights, which he reads in the last years and that he is not longer sure with his oppinion.

Unfortunately Paul Dunlop and Larry Selman did not respond to my message till today, so that this weight is still a miracle :)

Probably I will ask robinsonpaperweights for their oppinion.

Nadine

 

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