No-one likes general adverts, and ours hadn't been updated for ages, so we're having a clear-out and a change round to make the new ones useful to you. These new adverts bring in a small amount to help pay for the board and keep it free for you to use, so please do use them whenever you can, Let our links help you find great books on glass or a new piece for your collection. Thank you for supporting the Board.

Author Topic: Etruscan vase bright azure blue opaline c1850,what is the picture,which country?  (Read 10208 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 9857
    • UK
And I do apologise this thread is soooo long  :-[

I had been vaguely thinking that it might be possible this vase was made a lot later - like 1930s or something.

But I have come across a Clichy bowl (dated 1846)and a candlestick (1850) in this blue, so that, along with the similarity in shape to the Richardson's vases, and the comments in the 1851 exhibition catalogue that British glass was seen in Turquoise and Mazareen blue ... and now it seems possible that the enamelled picture may have been taken from Mr Thomas Kirk's plates published in 1804, I'm back to thinking most likely mid 19th.

I will get to the bottom of this if it kills me  ;D

m

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline theElench

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 90
  • Gender: Male
    • Art Deco
    • England
Is it possible that the figure on the horse is Mithras?  The hat looks similar and part of the myth was about him killing a bull.  Just a thought.

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 9857
    • UK
Good suggestion and thank you.
The sun (and sun god) features very heavily in the Mithras history/legend/myth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism

Which could  explain the sun emblem on the vase.
And could explain why, in the book accompanying the plates, the author could not give a reason as to why the sun emblem was there when describing the myth of Herakles and Hyppolyte ( I didn't copy out all that was said in the book). 

It may not explain why Iobates is in the picture on my vase as well though - or it might(perhaps it isn't Iobates?). 

I will do some more research.

Thank you.

m



Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 9857
    • UK
This is what Encyclopaedia Britannica says about Mithras mythology:
(WRITTEN BY: Reinhold Merkelbach
LAST UPDATED: 8-18-2016 See Article History)
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mithraism


'MYTHOLOGY AND THEOLOGY
The creation of the world is the central episode of Mithraic mythology. According to the myths, the sun god sent his messenger, the raven, to Mithra and ordered him to sacrifice the bull. Mithra executed the order reluctantly; in many reliefs he is seen turning aside his face in sorrow. But at the very moment of the death of the bull, a great miracle happened. The white bull was metamorphosed into the moon; the cloak of Mithra was transformed into the vault of the sky, with the shining planets and fixed stars; from the tail of the bull and from his blood sprang the first ears of grain and the grape; and from the genitals of the animal ran the holy seed which was received by a mixing bowl. Every creature on earth was shaped with an admixture of the holy seed. One Mithraic hymn begins: “Thou hast redeemed us too by shedding the eternal blood.” The plants and the trees were created. Day and night began to alternate, the moon started her monthly cycle, the seasons took up their round dance through the year, and thus time was created. But, awakened by the sudden light, the creatures of the dark emerged from earth. A serpent licked the bull’s blood. A scorpion tried to suck the holy seed from the genitals. On the reliefs a lion often is also seen. With the bull’s death and the creation of the world, the struggle between good and evil began: thus is the condition of human life. The raven symbolizes air, the lion fire, the serpent earth, and the mixing bowl water. So the four elements (air, fire, earth, and water) came into being, and from them all things were created. After the sacrifice, Mithra and the sun god banqueted together, ate meat and bread, and drank wine. Then Mithra mounted the chariot of the sun god and drove with him across the ocean, through the air to the end of the world.


The myth was interpreted by the Roman Mithraists in terms of Platonic philosophy. The sacrifice took place in a cave, an image of the world, as in the simile of the cave in Plato’s Republic. Mithra himself was equated with the demiurge, or creator, of the Timaeus: he was called “demiurge and father of all things,” like the Platonic demiurge. The four elements, the mixing bowl, the creation of time, and the attack of the wicked animals upon the newborn creature are well-known features of the Timaeus. The Mithraic doctrine of the soul is intimately linked with the myth of creation and with Platonic philosophy. As in the Timaeus, the human soul came down from heaven. It crossed the seven spheres of the planets, taking on their vices (e.g., those of Mars and of Venus), and was finally caught within the body. The task of human life is to liberate one’s divine part (the soul) from the shackles of the body and to reascend through the seven spheres to the eternal, unchanging realm of the fixed stars. This ascent to the sky was prefigured by Mithra himself, when he left the earth in the chariot of the sun god.'


_______

This is an explanation of Demiurge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

_______


a) So, is it possible that the figure on the left represents the Demiurge, the horse and rider Mithras, and the figure on the right perhaps represents the bull?  The sun emblem incorporated because of the importance of the sun in the Mithras mythology/belief?

Therefore the whole depiction on my vase might reference/be depicting Mithras, rather than a task of Herakles?

The drawings on my vase, definitely appear to have been taken from Mr Thomas Kirk's engravings which date to c.1804 and were taken from Sir Williams Hamilton's drawings.
But they are taken from two separate drawings as I showed previous, with the figure on the left being taken from one, and the two figures on the right along with the sun depiction being taken from another drawing.
Perhaps the designer of the picture on my vase designed the picture to represent Mithras hence using two different drawings.

b) Or does it as previously discussed, represent one of  Herakles tasks, showing Herakles, Hippolyta and Iobates ?

But that myth does not explain the reason or relevance of the sun depiction in either the plate or my vase.

The book with Mr Kirk's plates in it, has only some meandering thoughts as to why the sun might be on the plate and indeed one of the descriptive paragraphs of  the plate starts 'This plate is supposed to represent Hyppolyta engaged with Hercules ...'
My underlining, and note it uses the phrase '...supposed to represent ...' rather than '...represents...'.

https://archive.org/stream/outlinesfromfig00hami/outlinesfromfig00hami#page/25/mode/1up
see pages 25 and 26
This the description of the plate of the Horse and rider and the man with weapon seen on my vase:
'Plate XL
Hipployta, queen of the Amazons, wore the girdle of Mars, as an emblem of the country she reigned over: Admeta , the daughter of Euristheus, became envious of this honour, and wished to possess the girdle.  In consequence of this desire, Hercules received orders to procure it.  This is the ninth of the labours, which this god undertook at the request of his brother.  He immediately went to the banks of the river Thermodoon, which the Amazons inhabited.  Juno, always at variance with, and hating Hercules, had recourse to her usual cunning, and caused the girdle, which he would have obtained as a gift, to become the cause of a most obstinate conflict between Hercules and the warlike Amazons.

This Plate is supposed to represent Hippolyta engaged with Hercules, in which combat, according to Apollodorus, the Amazonian queen lost her life.  The meaning of the ray of sun over Hercules and the horse is uncertain:  the Chaldeans called the planet Mars, Hercules:  and there is also a constellation under the same name. It is probably one of these three things, that it is intended to denote.'
[/b]

In my opinion it is not at all certain from the authors description in that book, that that plate definitely represents the myth of Hercules and Hippolyta's belt.

In my opinion it is possible that both the Plate 40 from the book, and the depiction on my vase (with an additional third figure to the two on the Plate from the book), could represent Mithras instead.

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 9857
    • UK
I've just been reading the introduction to the second edition volume of Mr Thomas Kirk's drawings and there is an interesting comment in there, which might pertain to the positioning of the lion's paw for decency in Mr Kirk's depiction, versus the Tieschbein published earlier drawings where modesty is not preserved:

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1814/0003?sid=0c1b8ea9f82da624692be4e0f7997e75
pp Introduction ii
'There was another object also, which Mr Kirk always kept in view, and that was, the rejection of all those designs from his collection, which tended in any degree to indelicate expression'.


So possibly Mr Kirk 're-designed' the depiction so he could include this in his collection and to preserve modesty.


The picture link I showed previously was published in 1804

This comment above is copied from the Introduction in this set appears to have been published in 1814 (second edition)
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1814/0001?sid=0c1b8ea9f82da624692be4e0f7997e75

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 9857
    • UK
1) Extremely interesting that I made the observation about the author saying T Kirk was accurate!

In this book Romantic Arts & Letters: British Print, Paint, Engraving, 1760--1830, Thora Brylowe 2009, see pages 56 and 57

where she comments on that very issue of his accuracy being cited by the author, and where Brylowe notes the fact that the borders on the Kirk designs do not correspond with those on the vases despite the author stating his apparent 'accuracy'.  However she has not, as far as I can see, picked up on the 'lion's paw' being re-drawn in Kirk's  engravings. But does go on to discuss potential inaccuracy and why in some detail.

At which point I should add, that Brylowe says that Kirk did re-engravings of engravings for that book - i.e. he didn't use the original vases to do his engravings but copied the previous engravings of the Hamilton designs.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u-KVauoJHlkC&pg=PA56&dq=kirk+outline+drawings&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiD9Mrm9N_RAhVRGsAKHTkKDTIQ6AEIMjAE#v=onepage&q=kirk%20outline%20drawings&f=false

So


2) As far as I can see the designer and enameller of my vase copied a T Kirk engraving for my vase. 
Which must have meant the T. Kirk volume of designs were somewhere available for the enameller to copy.  London? Birmingham?The enamelling has been fired on as far as I can see. 
From what I read above, the Kirk volume of engravings was intended for public consumption and does not appear to have been overly highly priced. Brylowe goes on to discuss the Kirk engravings in depth and how they were used e.g. by Spode (example shown from 1806) for their pottery, and it makes fascinating reading.



3) This is a print of Sir William Hamilton and one of his vases along with his engraving Plates in the British Museum - with some explanation
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=324321001&objectId=1536765&partId=1

Reynold's painting the print was made from here
https://londongrandtour.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/diletantti-by-sir-joshua-reynolds.jpg



4) Published more recently than Brylowe's book is this below.  What is interesting (having speed read it) to me is how expensive plates were to produce and how much access the public would have had to them - presumably more access to Kirk's than to the original Hamilton engravings for example.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oY4d8IILJpkC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=Kirk+outline+engravings+and+drawings&source=bl&ots=h81nOOyxFr&sig=bONZ3f9zwf5SbIPfrl6mMA3W_Vc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjry9br_t_RAhWJuBoKHQ_HBUIQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=Kirk%20outline%20engravings%20and%20drawings&f=false

Sciences of Antiquity: Romantic Antiquarianism, Natural History, and ...
By Noah Heringman



I'm basically trying to work out dating my vase and how the enameller would have had access to the Kirk engravings to copy them onto the vase.

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 9857
    • UK
Spode used  T Kirk designs in 1806 according to the Brylowe book.
In 1806 Spode were also give the Royal seal of approval that year apparently

http://www.antique-porcelain-online.com/spode-history.html
"Potter and English Porcelain Manufacturer to his Royal Highness” was the appointment conferred on Spode II by the Prince of Wales after his visit of the factory in 1806.

This link is to a large set of the 1806 designs used (selling for $20000 yikes!)
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/ceramics/spode-greek-pattern-clobbered-large-dinner-set/id-f_3185882/

So it seems the Hamilton designs were used on Wedgwood (Wedgwood had links with Hamilton)from late 18th, and Spode used T Kirk's Outline drawings on theirs in 1806 ...



There was an 'Etruscan' revival interest around the 1851 Great Exhibition where many were on show according to what I've read in CH British Glass.  So the small task left is to find out which glass maker was using the T Kirk Outline drawings for theirs  ;D


Whilst from what I understand (and could be wrong) Kirk's volumes were supposed to make the engravings more accessible to a wider public, they don't seem to me to have been particularly 'mass produced' as it were/as we would understand it. 
http://collections.soane.org/b10643

So for example what appears to have been a second hand set was available here in 1835 for 15shillings having originally sold at £2,2shillings (I think - I don't understand old money or legends) Is that something like £400 value now?
NO 543. in this link the 'Gentleman's Magazine or Monthly Intelligencer Volume 40'
This was a G. Cumberland's copy with '... his MS. observations in pencil'.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mPhfAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA17&lpg=RA1-PA17&dq=t+kirk+outlines+from+figures&source=bl&ots=zs3jemLWLJ&sig=WoFPnaOheH0r-whtqcQrG-McoBA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK6afOi-DRAhXKSRoKHVVaAsgQ6AEIRTAL#v=onepage&q=t%20kirk%20outlines%20from%20figures&f=false

and a book with 62 plates in was available here in 1841 for £2,5shillings
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2V9WAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=t+kirk+outlines+from+figures&source=bl&ots=8BAUUa0JaS&sig=hvHQ9SgesiaqdgaTUC_9ijfFOr0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK6afOi-DRAhXKSRoKHVVaAsgQ6AEITzAO#v=onepage&q=t%20kirk%20outlines%20from%20figures&f=false

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com



Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 9857
    • UK
The border around the rim of my vase appears to have been copied from plate 27 of Kirk's Outlines from the Figures
this link to the 1814 edition
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Atna1x1ss3wC&pg=PR1&lpg=PR1&dq=william+hamilton+engravings+Kirk%27s+outlines&source=bl&ots=ok8uNEruZ4&sig=rjdFttXiIZ3u2aCc7MrZW6_p_aI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjM19as0-LRAhWZF8AKHQiTAb4Q6AEIVTAM#v=onepage&q&f=false




With regards as to whether this represent the myth of Mithra or Hippolyta's belt and Herakles labours, I though the above quote was a bit strange and have found the full quote in the second edition and included the 'third' thing which is about the illustrious birth of the hero, so it should have read:

'This Plate is supposed to represent Hippolyta engaged with Hercules, in which combat, according to Apollodorus, the Amazonian queen lost her life. The meaning of the ray of sun over Hercules and the horse is uncertain: It may denote the illustrious birth of the hero: the Chaldeans called the planet Mars, Hercules:  and there is also a constellation under the same name. It is probably one of these three things, that it is intended to denote.'[/b]




Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 9857
    • UK
A possible  inspiration for the stunning blue of my vase?

Thomas Hope bought a collection of vases in the late 18th from Sir William Hamilton.
He designed rooms to house the vases in Duchess street.

He designed another room in that house called the Aurora Room.

This is the room - recreated by the V&A - it shows a stunning blue ceiling
http://patrickbaty.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Aurora-join.jpg

link here to more explanation of Hope's interior career
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/thomas-hope/

Equally, Spode produced a set of china using the Kirk designs, called  Greek which is on a bright blue background.
Iirc I think I read that T Copeland (who took over Spode) exhibited at the Great Exhibition in 1851 and appears to have exhibited some cut glass as well.  Obviously cut glass is not blue opaline glass, but just curious that a pottery would be exhibiting glass.


I am no closer to knowing who made my vase or why it is the colour it is when no others I can find are in this colour.
So I'm just adding information here just in case it becomes part of the story :)

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk
Look for glass on
ebay.co.uk
Visit the Glass Encyclopedia
link to glass encyclopedia
Look for glass on
ebay.com (us)
Visit the Online Glass Museum
link to glass museum


This website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand