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Author Topic: Etruscan vase bright azure blue opaline c1850,what is the picture,which country?  (Read 9812 times)

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I'm discounting for now, Spode as the source of the design for my vase.
Thora Brylowe commented in her book on the almost cartoonish interpretation on the Spode pottery, which were taken from Kirk's 1804 edition:
see page 60
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u-KVauoJHlkC&pg=PA27&dq=thora+brylowe+hamilton&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi24uTw_-LRAhXkCcAKHaZZBRkQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=spode&f=false

I've found one Spode plate in brown pearlware on Pinterest. 
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/92/b6/03/92b603d75d5a105b3cf97c01e65bb708.jpg
It has the 'Hippolyte and Herakles' design on it but no 'Iobates', and  I have to agree with Brylowe, it's a pretty odd interpretation of the Kirk engraving.  The design on my vase is much closer to the original Kirk engraving, so I don't think Spode were the inspiration for it.

m

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This is the Bacchus vase I was referring to with part of the Kirk's design on it which is in CH British Glass 1800-1914
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6250/vase-george-bacchus-and/

it has been transferred printed on but it looks remarkably similar to Kirk's outline design.
Mine is enamelled not transfer printed.


m

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Here is a link to the Hippolyta and Hercules Kirk Plate (1804) used for the Spode pottery -
I think from what I've read, that this was used in 1806 by Spode.
They show a blue version here, the one I showed above was in brown.

http://spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/heracles-fighting-hippolyta

'Pattern Category: Greek
Biblographic References:
Kirk, Engraver. Outlines from the figures and compositions upon the Greek Roman and Etruscan vases of the late Sir William Hamilton. William Miller, London, 1804.

Description:
Kirk, P.40

This was the only source that Spode used for Heracles Fighting Hippolyta.
Below is the blue printed example.'



There are three figures on my vase - because of this, I am not convinced the artist (of my vase) was depicting Herakles and Hippolyta. 
The myth of Mithra is often depicted with three figures.
It might be that the artist of my vase used Kirk's Outline for reference but was actually depicting the story of Mithra.

m

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In the catalogue of the Great Exhibition
page 197 Under Austria
no 584 - it says Count Buquoy exhibited 'Etrurian Vases'.

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In reply #63
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,53085.msg314983.html#msg314983
I mentioned a blue ground vase with Grecian figures exhibited by Richardson at the Birmingham exhibition.
Well I've found one ... or rather not a vase but a blue ground piece and it's enamelled on and nothing like my vase, neither are the figures.



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This is what I believe is a 'blue ground' piece of Richardson Glass (I think W.H, B., and J. Richardson piece). So not blue glass as my vase is.
It is marked on the base in black 'Richardson Vitrified' and is possibly what is described in the Birmingham Exhibition catalogue list as 'blue ground'.
There are a number of pieces in there described as having Grecian figures.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EARLY-VICTORIAN-RICHARDSON-039-S-VITRIFIED-ENAMEL-SCENT-BOTTLE-circa-1850-/201796956281?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=gT284lW%252BkkjOn4nPGPP2Zj7PqZU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Didn't buy as not coloured glass but it's pretty.

m

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Earlier on I think (can't be bothered to re-read the whole thread  :o )
I mentioned the use of 'Mazareen blue' in the Offical Catalogue of the Great Exhibition of Industry of All Nations 1851.

I have just revisited the catalogue and the listing is:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8FdS4CscCG8C&pg=PA124&dq=mellish+silvered+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigyInH6fnWAhXEL8AKHbFVDCQQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=Glass%20globes&f=false

On page 124, Under catagory Class 24 Glass:

'19. Davis, Greathead and Green, Stourbridge, Manu.- Cut glass decanters, water jugs and goblets, ruby centres and stands, lustres, with ruby and flint drops, cut and enamelled; coloured hock, and other wine-glasses.  A great variety of ornamental vases; white, opal, frosted, Mazareen blue, and topaz; painted, enamelled, cut, and engraved.'




Mazareen blue is described in this book:

Indigo in the Arab World (Jenny Balfour-Paul, First published in 1997 Routledge)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=51QWcY07KXwC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=what+is+Mazareen+blue&source=bl&ots=q_Tc-hncls&sig=IaHuUECw4dNo5xDImzSWhQ2om9g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjk-KOD7vnWAhWmL8AKHVh2D90Q6AEIODAG#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20Mazareen%20blue&f=false

Chapter 7 pp 117

'Eighteenth Century European dyers classified indigo colours into thirteen separate shades, beginning with the lightest:
"milk-blue, pearl-blue, pale-blue, flat-blue, middling-blue, sky-blue, queen's-blue, turkish-blue, watchet-blue, garter-blue, mazareen-blue, deep-blue, and very deep or navy-blue' (or 'infernal blue').'




My vase could definitely be classified as 'mazareen blue'.

Since Davis, Greathead and Green showed  'A great variety of ornamental vases; white, opal, frosted, Mazareen blue, and topaz; painted, enamelled, cut, and engraved.', I think they have to be a serious contender for my vase.
The shape is almost identical apart from the foot shape, to a shape from Richardson's (in the Corning - size and shape compared).
See also CH British Glass 1800-1914 pp 136 for a Richardson Etruscan vase in the same body shape but with a different foot (also 'chunky' shaped).  So the shape seems correct for the period 1851 as well.  The decoration design is Etruscan, also quite right for the period.
The making of it is very high quality, heavy, thick glass beautifully finished.


m

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I cannot find my source right now but I read last night that Thomas Hawkes of Dudley (in the 1840s iirc) produced 'Turquoy gilded glass' and produced an  important dessert service of this turquoy gilded glass.

So another possible candidate.

p.s. it's going to be embarrassing if I find out this was made in 1920  ;D however, the enamelling, the shape match to a Richardson vase of the late 1840s/early 1850 and the 'unique' colour of the vase still makes me think this is the right period for it.


Edited to add:

I have found a piece that I think could be the piece I found described as Turquoy glass.  I may have misunderstood 'Turquoy opal glass' as being for turquoise opaline glass - the piece I have found (is linked to the Corporation of London service, which is what I read associated with the Turquoy opal glass), and could be a purperpine (or reddish purply) opaline glass,but might have just been enamelled that colour on clear glass - it's difficult to tell. 
So perhaps 'Turquoy' meant 'Turkish'?
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O4967/plate-thomas-hawkes-co/


so Hawkes MIGHT be off the list.
 


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Update 1:

I have found a Richardson white opaline vase for sale.
It has clear pictures.  The foot appears to me to be flat and seller says it is flat i.e part of the vase body so I think the whole thing is hollow to the bottom, and with a large polished pontil mark on the base.  That is different to the foot on mine which is open and applied separately to the base of the body of the vase, so mine has no pontil mark.  Mine has an open foot rim,much like a rim on the top of the vase and is beautifully, immaculately finished as is the top rim.

The one I've found is stamped Richardson's Stourbridge in a circle in enamel colour tan. 
It has a stamped P in the middle of the circular Richardson's Stourbridge stamp and in the same enamel colour and then has a small number 4 separately enamelled in a different colour underneath the Stourbridge which forms the bottom of the circle stamp.  It also has a number 324 enamelled in the middle of the circular mark underneath the P, done again in the same different enamel as the small number 4.  i.e. those numbers seem to have been added later.

https://antiquesatlas.com/antique/19th_c_richardson_greek_soldier_glass_vase_c1870/as864a061



Update 2:

In 1846 a Clichy bowl on stemmed foot was given to the Sevres Manufactory ' coupe baguier a jambe balustre en opaline de verre bleu, par MM. Maes et Clemandot'  by MM. Maes et Clemandot  (see La Cristallerie de Clichy pp 256).  I am pretty convinced a) it is the same colour as my vase and b) it is the same type, thickness,heft etc as my vase.  (Ivo will be pleased as I think it was he who first suggested French :) )

Now I need to track the drawings and decoration to see if it could link to Clichy somehow.


Just for reference:
This is Mr Kirk's drawing of Herakles fighting Hippolyta as referenced on the Spode site,as it was used for a Spode plate centre design introduced in 1806.
http://spodeceramics.com/pottery/printed-designs/sources/heracles-fighting-hippolyta

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according to this listing the vase was produced by Bercy c.1820
http://www.seblantic.com/up/Opalines/@@sites@2@Product_xx_idProduct--21834__lang--en@@.htm

Shape has good similarities. Also putting them side by side it is a very good match for colour.
Bercy were producing coloured opaline glass at this time (Darnis L, Baguiers et Verres a Boire ) including various deep dark blues.  So were Montcenis.

In terms of the fact it is matt (acid etched matt?) Rice Harris Birmingham were producing acid etched glass in 1840 (see page 277 of link)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=k3YqAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=rice+harris+glass+birmingham&source=bl&ots=qluqf8y_C-&sig=lJqIwORc7dKnYzp67NZaVp9QA_Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjv77CMi6bXAhUHIewKHXwoAA04ChDoAQg3MAQ#v=onepage&q=rice%20harris%20glass%20birmingham&f=false

This article from 1850 discusses Rice Harris and their 'ruby and other coloured glass'
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts-idx?type=turn&entity=DLDecArts.JournDesv02.p0033&id=DLDecArts.JournDesv02&isize=M
see page 15 - where it also says Rice Harris employs 500 men (and I read somewhere that Rice Harris employed french glassmakers - just for reference. Cannot remember during what period though)




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