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Author Topic: Etruscan vase bright azure blue opaline c1850,what is the picture,which country?  (Read 9811 times)

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Offline flying free

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am I out on a limb with this one then?  ;D

Anyone know of any other vases with small neat handpainted outlined figures on that I can take a look at.
I did find one brightly painted beautiful Paris Porcelain vase with an Etruscan scene and pretty, neat, figures but not outlined only  (yes, I've searched porcelain Etruscan from a variety of countries as well just in case :) 

Or does anyone know if there is anything about this vase, shape, colour, glass, opaline etc, that might make it definitively NOT Russian?

I am not looking at Bohemian for the moment as I think that might be a last resort for various reasons (shape, finishing on edges, the type of opaline it is etc , can't absolutely explain why)

I have searched French til I'm blue in the face and not a single anything match to this at all, apart from finding a possible match in a  jockey shaped hat etui being sold as French, in blue satin opaline that may or may not turn out to be a match. But absolutely nothing larger.  The only link I'd thought of possibly being an attempt to match a Sevres blue porcelain colour perhaps?

The shape and type of opaline could indicate Richardson's, but no colour or decorative match at all so far and no match to anything else remotely English so far.

The colour is intense and slightly doesn't quite 'match ' to any thing else I can find - apart from possibly a large chandelier  with a huge satin blue opaline bowl in the middle of it, that is being sold as Russian.

m

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Back on track, I've revisited all my Richardson's references.

I don’t have a match to the decoration.  I don’t have a match to the foot.  However my guts are telling me this is a Richardson vase.

1) There are two marked ('Richardson's Vitrified') Richardson's Etruscan vases in Miller's Glass (Mark West Consultant).  Page 157

a)  firstly I said earlier in the thread that I presumed one had ended up at the Corning as the shape I linked to (see link below) and the design appeared identical -
Correction, the shape and design (compared to the pictorial design on the left hand one in the book) are identical, however the one in the Corning has the geometric design and the pictorial design all in black on a frosted white opaline vase.  The one in Mark West's book is on white opaline body, however the geometric borders are in black, but the actual pictorial design is in brown (his descriptive colour).
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/acid-etched-vase

b) Both the vases pictured in the book have the black and brown design, however whilst both have matching geometric borders that also match the one in the Corning, it seems the actual pictorial design is possibly different on both (still Etruscan but not the same design on both vases).  It's possible one is the reverse of the other, but using the Corning example as a guide because the picture matches the vase on the left in the book, the reverse of that design (seen in the Corning link) is not the same as the second vase pictured in the book.

c) The two vases in the book look to be identical in shape to the one in the Corning... well almost, but not absolutely exactly (although on casual glance they definitely look so). Presumably this is because whilst mold blown, the vases have all been finished by hand and so that will account for any slight variations? 
The two vases pictured in the book have been photographed, neatly, exactly in profile against a black background.  It may be an optical illusion but as far as I can see they are very slightly different shapes to each other from the neck to the cup.  The one on the right has a slightly longer neck and more of an angle at the base of the cup and looks to be very, very slightly taller because of this.  Likewise neither are absolutely identical to the one in the Corning which appears to have a longer neck and slightly narrower cup. Again, I presume this can be accounted for by hand finishing?


The body shape and cupped rim of mine is a match shape wise and proportionately, to the left one in the book. But my foot is different to all of them.

From what I can see, it appears the foot could be applied on the ones in the book (not part of the same mould as the body), however I cannot tell for fact and therefore I do not know whether it is hollow as mine is (domed and open to a rimmed base) or whether it is flat and closed with a pontil mark. 

I should note that on page 159 he shows a Richardson’s Vitrified mark on a white base of a foot and the foot is closed and has a polished pontil mark.  I don’t know whether that is the base of the one of the white Etruscan vases on page 158 or not, though it could well be.  In which case I suppose it is possible that the feet are molded as part of the body of the vase.

To explain the difference in the foot I can't see any reason why Richardson would not have used different feet for their designs, rather than replicating them all exactly, so I can't see that as being an obstacle.
After all, the Richardson opaline vases in Etruscan design from the same period, in the British Museum, have the same cupped neck but are different shapes again -http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3331858&partId=1&searchText=Richardson+vase&page=1

In summary, looking again at the pictures in the book (which is where I first got the wake-up call), my vase matches the shape and size proportionately and at the neck/cup  etc, as the left hand one in the book.  There is no question in my mind that my vase has come from the same mould as these vases (but mine has a different applied foot).


2)   My vase is hand decorated and isn't transfer printed. 

 Mark West says in his book on page 159 under the heading Vitrified Colours:
'Another famous Richardson patent was known as "Vitrified Colours".  Items made using this technique were displayed at the Great Exhibition.  The process involved transfer printing and firing a black or coloured pattern onto the glass body (usually opaque). Sometimes the enamels were hand-painted onto the body although this is less common .' (my underlining)

3) What about the colour of mine given all those I’ve found are white opaline (frosted or polished opaline)?
a) Returning to my post no44 above -
“And in the Official Catalogue of the Great Exhibition under Richardson it says
'...Opal, cornelian, chrysolite and Turkey glass ornamented in enamel colours...'
No idea what Turkey glass is though.”

From what I have managed to find, ‘Turkey’ was an old fashioned word for Turquoise, so it is possible this is what was meant by ‘Turkey glass’? 

I wouldn’t however, say my vase was Turquoise.  It’s an impossible colour to describe.  The only thing I can tell for sure, is that under lighting photographed against a black background, it is a match on screen for a satin opaline French piece in a colour called ‘Bleu Drapeau’, which is a French opaline blue colour developed around the 1850’s according to Roland Dufrenne.  I’ve no idea if in real life my vase looks the same colour as those pieces, but it certainly does when compared on screen.  It’s not turquoise, not royal blue, not blue green, a sort of mix of them all.  An Azure blue is the best I can come up with.

b( Charles Hajdamach in British Glass 1800 – 1914 page 106/107 repeats a description, from one of the Great Exhibition catalogues, of the Richardson’s glass display.  In it there is much mention of ‘opal’ and ‘opal glass’ but unfortunately no definition of whether ‘opal’ means white, or whether it means opaline. However it does state ‘coloured’ and ‘frosted’ glass.
‘One of the many catalogues to the exhibition summarised their display:  “Cut crystal glass; consisting of centre-dish ….  A variety of articles in coloured, frosted, and painted glass. Opal vases, painted with enamel colours; subjects – Ulysses weeping at the song of Demodocus – Judgement of Paris – Diomed casting his spear at Mars – Dream of Penelope – Loch Oich – and from Aesop’s fables, the latter gilt; and various others. 
Flower vases of gilt; ruby, black, and flint glass, cut and gilt; opal glass, painted – Pet Fawn – in enamel colours; opal glass, ornamented with enamel colours – Grecian figures.”

c( There are at least three examples of green opaline and yellow opaline produced by Richardson around this time so it’s clear they were producing coloured opalines. 

-   On page 104 of Charles Hajdamach’s book as above, there are two bottles, one yellow one green and they are dated to the 1840’s. 
-   It also states in the book ‘Before 1851 the firm used two marks … The other more common mark said ‘Richardson’s Vitrified’, often   with the extra words ‘Enamel Colors’.  The latter word usually spelled  without the ‘u’’. 
-   And on page 447 the book says ‘The firm does not appear to have used a trademark in the second half of the nineteenth century’

- All of which should also put this green opaline vase – see link- in the pre 1851 time frame as it is marked Richardson’s Vitrified
http://www.portobelloglass.com/antique_glass_vases.html

Therefore I think it is fair to presume that it is possible they made my Azure blue opaline around this time, as well as the yellow and greens we know about. 


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Offline flying free

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To add to my post above -
This vase is a Richardson's opaline 'Etruscan' vase in the similar shape to mine and has a hollow trumpet foot
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH1339/

There is also a sugar bowl and lid in blue and white opaline with  gilded lines on.  It is listed as 'probably Richardson's' c.1850.  It's not helpful because it only says 'probably Richardson's' but just to comment that the opaline on mine looks to be the same thickness as this and other opaline vases (identified) I've found by them. (see link to green jug and white jug below sugar bowl, as example of the type of thickness of mine).
Mine is superb quality, top quality, thick glass, with beautifully finished rims on both foot and rim.
And this shows they were making intensely coloured opaline glass around 1850. 
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST238/

http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST140/
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST192/
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST246/

Another feature I have noticed with many Richardson's vases is that their pictorial figure decorations often 'stand' on a 'ground' as mine do.

m

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Offline flying free

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I've begged for some help and sent off all the information I can find along with some photographs ... and I'm hopeful that eventually this will be identified as Richardson's.

In the meantime, I've actually looked more carefully   ::)  :-[ at Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914   and discovered on page 418 and 419 and 420 appendix 3, there is a list of articles exhibited by Richardson at Bingley Hall in 1849.
At the top of the list it says
'... All painted articles are done in Vitrified Enamel Colours'
It then goes on to list 141 items, some of which it notes as 'printed', many of which it notes as 'painted' - whooohooo :)
There are loads of 'Grecian' vases noted in varying forms and 'printed' or 'painted' depending on which item.
No 10 is the most exciting
'Vase, blue ground, painted, Atalante and Hippomede'  - a blue ground vase and also classical in painted design!!

In addition to which there is no 15
'Portland Vase, painted, Fawn figures'  - I've no idea what 'Fawn figures' means - does it mean painted in Fawn colour?  they don't seem to refer to the colours black and blue for example,  as Black or Blue with a capital. So I wonder what Fawn is? Just thinking about the 'fawn/ecru/buff' colour of my design.

and no 16
'Portland vase, blue ground and black shaded figures'

I can hardly contain my excitement  ;D  if mine turns out not to be Richardson's you will have to nurse me through my disappointment  ;D
m

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Offline keith

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Isn't a fawn a goat like creature ? ??? ;D

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yes, I thought like a bambi type thing, and that's probably what it means ... but you know I live in hope lol :)  the smallest clue, just in case, is worth examining .

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aha but.... on page 420 under no 93. it says
'Globe, two Grecian subjects in fawn shaded' !!!  so, is it possible that they used the term Fawn for a bambi/goat thing fawn, or that it could also relate to fawn the colour.
I wonder.. darn, that's confusing.

They also appear to use the word 'frosted' if the ground has been frosted which they haven't done on the 'blue ground' vase mention.
There are two more blue ground mentions
108 and 109 both say 'Vase, blue ground and Grecian figure'
But they do mention
'113.  Portland Cream, fawn figures' as well -

Sorry there are too many mentions of fawn here, for there not to have been some of it fawn enamels ... which mine is - ooo la la
m

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Offline keith

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Faun is the deer thingy,fawn the colour,must go back to school, ::) ;D ;D

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no, it is Fawn  - a young deer :)

and Fawn is also a colour


 but Faun is a sort of mythical type goat thing - half human half goat I think
here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun
m

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I've found it very interesting reading the exhibition comments in some of the journals for the Birmingham exhibition 1849, the Great Exhibition 1851 and the Paris Exhibition in 1855.

I've been looking for engravings of Richardson glass, because of the vase in this thread.  But  also trying to spot another vase, a cameo vase that Franz Zach engraved and which the V& A bought from the Paris exhibition.  Mainly  because in the case of my cameo vase (on another thread) I'd been very curious about the lack of comment generally, on the fact that Bohemian glassmakers were producing superb cameo glass in the 1850's.

This is just my 'general' feeling, but it seems the British 'arbitors' of taste who produced the articles on the exhibitions seemed to favour the 'transparency' of the crystal above all else.  Therefore the articles concentrate mostly on cut and engraved crystal (singing the praises of the clarity of British crystal).  They criticise the overuse of ormolu with glass, they refer, it seems fleetingly, to transparent colours if they've been engraved.
One piece (1847 Birmingham) acknowledged that, where Richardson's had applied an overlay of coloured glass in three 'medallion' type patches on a goblet, this was a new and exciting thing to do in overlaying coloured glass on white (clear), but then criticised where it had been applied on the goblet and said it would have looked better around the rim lol.  They  rarely talk about  opaline colours or non-transparent colours  and certainly didn't seem to like enamelled opaque or frosted glass - which in one piece I read, was said should be in a group with porcelain  :)

I can't find a mention of the Franz Zach piece at all.  What is more curious is that there is mention of a blue Baccarat acid etched cameo in the Paris Exhibition article I read, but it isn't described as cameo glass.  Instead they have described the whole process of how it was made and whereby the blue and a half tint blue is achieved on the white (clear) glass body etc, in great detail.  But nowhere a reference to the Franz Zach cameo in the V&A or anything like it from Bohemia.

I wonder if this is because they were so averse to coloured glass that the very fact someone had produced some new and very exciting and difficult work (Franz Zach 1855 - blue over clear and then cameo cut with the background all engraved behind the relief cameo - and it's not a small piece ) just completely passed them by.

I think it's also a possible reason why it's so hard to find any engravings of examples of English makers coloured glass of the time. I've found a few extra ones to the ones shown in CH British Glass 1800-1914 (mostly Bacchus and Rice Harris) and one that I think is Richardson enamelled Etruscan/Grecian, but I don't even think that is on coloured opaline or opaque glass, I think that one is clear glass with an engraving on.

Obviously this is just the 'general' feeling I get reading the articles :) but it's not a wonder it's so hard to find examples lol.  Never mind try and match them to real pieces.  Things just do not look the same in black and white however hard you try to imagine it.

m

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