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Author Topic: Etruscan vase bright azure blue opaline c1850,what is the picture,which country?  (Read 9805 times)

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Offline flying free

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I've photographed the engraving on that goblet to compare to mine (I flipped my picture of the boy on the horse so it's facing the same way as the engraving).  There is definitely a big similarity between the engraved figure and horse on the right of the picture on the goblet and my enamelled picture. 
m

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Offline flying free

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This is a John Northwood drawing of Perseus and Andromeda.
According to the book,
'Northwood's Portland Vase was not his first
cameo glass vessel. About 1856, he produced a
white-over-blue vase depicting Perseus and Andromeda.
Unfortunately, the vase was broken
and no longer exists, but the Rakow Library has
a pencil sketch of the design, which was once in
the collection of Kenneth Northwood, the artist's
grandson.
'

 Fig 14 page 19

http://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/collections/DA/DAD1DEEE-4B86-491B-B804-69C7B1F46B40.pdf

Just for interest of comparison (bearing in mind comparing a drawing with an enamelled figure), I've turned my photo back round to the correct direction. I've also attached a cropped picture just showing the three figures to compare to the three figures composition in the sketch but I really needed a 'flatter' photograph of mine without the curve of the vase affecting the picture, but my battery has run out.


Source: English Cameo Glass in the Corning Museum of Glass, David Whitehouse,
Copyright 1994
The Corning Museum of Glass
Corning, New York 14830-2253

On this link to the Corning information, it says in the description of the drawing that the Corning has a similar drawing with four figures.  I was interested in the composition of the three figures, similar to mine.
m


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Offline MatW

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Hi, I think that, when you compare your Vase to other glass with depictions of classical Greek scenes, you have to have in mind the Greek prototypes the makers of your piece used as a model. When I look at your Vase, the style reminds me clearly of late classical Greek red-figured vases of the 4th century BC, and I am quite sure that somewhere out there exists a vase with your scene on it, even though I could not find it during quick search I did. The other engraved examples you showed are related to high classical Greek art of the fifth century BC, and that explains also the difrerences ins style of the horses and the riders etc... By the way, most of the "Etruscan" vases that I have seen show motives from greek vases. The term "Etruscan" has to do with the fact that nearly all Greek vases known from the late 18th century on came from Etruscan tombs, and it took quite some time to understand that they actually were imports from Greece, from Athens, to be precise. However, what I try to say is that I think that the style on the "Etruscan" glass vases is related to what the prototype was in each case...
Mat

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Offline flying free

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Mat, thanks so much for taking the time to reply  :)
And to explain about the era's of the styles - likewise my misuse of the term Etruscan  :-[
I knew about the vases originating in Greece having read up previously,  however it's a term used in British Glass 1800-1914, and by using it I was hoping to convey easily the type of vase that was going to be seen on the thread  :-[
( Likewise the use of the term Elgin Marbles which I hesitated to use as well and probably should have not)

Yes, after I had posted and done some renewed searching, it did occur to me that the scene is probably a 'copy' of  another piece and therefore the composition has no relevance.

Am I at a dead end I wonder?  my gut still says that I can find the enameller/templates and  thereby perhaps be able to confirm the identity of the vase as Richardson (which I am 99.999% sure it is).
I also feel that it's possible that a series of these were made so I'm hoping to turn up a set of designs all relating to Hercules tasks.

I have learnt so much through researching this piece, and thank you again for your help.
m

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Offline flying free

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Mat I posted a long post above but I think this might be an example

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/24.97.5

m

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Offline MatW

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Flying free, I think I found the source for the scene of your depiction, I knew I had seen that again somewhere. It is a mix of two scenes taken from the plates of a late 18th century publication of greek vases by William Hamilton. The bearded guy is taken from this plate (and is therefore king Iobates from the Bellerophon myth, who plays otherwise no role in the Herakles-Hippolyta-episode) : http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1791bd1/0171?sid=966ec6a1801f829245687ffc39c059b0 . And the fighting scene is clearly this plate: http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hamilton1791bd1/0182?sid=966ec6a1801f829245687ffc39c059b0 . Of course that does not help you identifying the maker, but at least you know now where he got inspired.  :)
Mat

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Offline MatW

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Ah, and yes, the vase you show is a good example of 4th century style, showing the youthful Herakles and not the bearded one I would expect in 5th century!
Mat

P.S: I personally have no prolem with the term "Elgin Marbles", I just hope some day the UK and Greece will find a formula to solve their problems with that theme and that populism regarding the marbles will stop on both sides...  ;) 

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Offline flying free

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Mat thank you!!!!

A couple of strange things strike me
- there's a funny difference between the picture and the vase,  the paw of the lion has swung round from being at Herakles side to covering his nether regions  ;D  - the Victorian need for modesty
and
- Why would  King Iobates be depicted along with Herakles and Hyppolyta if there is normally no connection?  it seems a bit strange.
And then a bit more strange when you see King Iobates with Bellerophon (on horseback) and the Chimera (lion) - I'm just wondering if someone got confused between the myths/template pictures and picked off the wrong templates  :-X  Or am I imagining things  ::)
m

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Offline flying free

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p.s. I have asked for a moderator amendment to reword to Parthenon Marbles. 

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Offline MatW

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To your first observation: ;D :-[
To the second one: Yes that is indeed strange. To know the answer one would have to know how educated the painter and also the buyers of these vases were. Did they know the myths of Herakles and Bellerophon so well that they would matter about it? If you assume that they did, then the bearded figure was likely chosen to represent king Eurystheus, the king that Herakles served and the one ho sent him to do all his 12 deeds. That would be ok, as the iconography of the figure is not specific to Iobates, but just that of a ruling person holding a sceptre. The other explanation would be that the painter used Hamilton's book just a a pattern book and chose figures he liked free of their meaning to compose a nice scene. Maybe the buyers were fine with having an "antique style" vase without bothering much if the scene shown makes sense or not? To check if that is the case, one would have to see other contemporary vases and to examine how conststent their depictions are as to their meaning. That would be quite an intersting task, I think!

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