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Author Topic: John Derbyshire goblet pattern No. 246.  (Read 1086 times)

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Offline Paul S.

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John Derbyshire goblet pattern No. 246.
« on: August 03, 2013, 04:19:50 PM »
Either I've overlooked snapping this one at Kew, or it wasn't Registered in the first place  -  it's proving a mystery, so if the pressed people can help, I'd be ecstatic. :)
In remarkably good condition with a clean, slightly concave, 'from the mould' base  -  has three mould seams  -   and a height of about 6" (155mm).             Quite a lot of wear on the outside of the foot where contact is made.
Only marks are the trade mark combined JD and anchor - plus the Derbyshire pattern No. 246.                       
In order to see these marks right way round, they must be viewed through the glass  -  which is the opposite to my few pieces of JD where marks are viewed on same side as impression.
Raymond Slack shows a couple of JD goblets from 8th August 1873  -  and he quotes factory pattern Nos. 256 and 258  -  so would assume mine was earlier, although might well have been registered on the same day.                        I've also looked at Neil's site and don't see a pattern match for my goblet.                                   The lenses on mine are squashed and appear horizontal, rather in the manner of some 'thumb print' ales.

According to the books, JD started registering designs in 1873......................   their first three were on 8th of August (Nos. 274961 - 62 and 63)and one more on 2nd September (No. 275756).

Rd. 274961...............sugar and cream -  pattern appears not to match.
      274962...............goblet and service  -  pattern appears not to match.
      274963...............goblet and service  -  pattern appears not to match.
      275756...............piano insulator  -  so not an issue.

According to Thompson, the only goblet patterns made by JD, during the factory's four year life, were the two shown above.......274962 and 274963  -  it's logically tempting therefore to assume that these must correspond to Slack's factory pattern Nos. 256 and 258, but that's my assumption only, and I'm unable to prove the point.
Thompson's supplement appears to contain nothing additional for JD.

So have drawn a blank  -  and hoping someone will be able to offer some suggestions, and thanks for looking :)

P.S.     like to record my appreciation of the information on Neil's pressed glass site, and to others who, like Rob Young, have added their pix.




Offline agincourt17

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Re: John Derbyshire goblet pattern No. 246.
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 08:58:42 PM »
There is a photo of my John Derbyshire goblet pattern 256 on Neilís site at 
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/derbyshires-unregistered-pressed-glass
and although Slack (page 116, plate 84;3) attributes a registration date of 8 August 1873 for it, there is no registration lozenge, just the JD anchor mark and pattern number, and it seems to correspond to no registered design representation. Hence, itís placement in the John Derbyshire unregistered designs section of the site.

There were only three registration numbers in the bundle covered by the lozenge for 8 August 1873 Ė Parcel : RD 274961, 274962, and 274963.

https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/derbyshire-brothers-designs-by-date/derbyshire-brothers-1873-1874
has  photos for RD 274961( a  pedestal bowl and a goblet), and   goblet RD 274963 (to which Slack attributes pattern number 258 on page 116, plate 84;4, though the text makes no mention of a pattern number, and Rob Youngís photo of the goblet does not show a JD anchor mark or a pattern number).

Jenny Thompsonís illustration of RD 274962 on page 42 matches Neilís description of the goblet (and is obviously not pattern 246).

So, pattern 256 definitely does not correspond to any of the designs registered on 8 August 1873 Ė Parcel 7 (despite Slackís assertion), and there seems to be no direct evidence so far to correlate pattern 258 with RD 274963 (only Slackís assertion again). .

The only John Derbyshire pieces bearing pattern numbers that I have come across (and which, incidentally, Neil also shows photos of) all bear the JD anchor mark, but none have a registry date lozenge.

I think the weight of evidence is that your John Derbyshire 246 goblet is from an unregistered design, especially as you havenít come across a corresponding design representation at Kew, and there are no earlier John Derbyshire design registrations that it can be.

Another photo of an unregistered John Derbyshire design for Neilís site then? (Nice photos, BTW).

Fred

Offline neilh

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Re: John Derbyshire goblet pattern No. 246.
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 11:00:56 PM »
274963 looks like it corresponds to 258, difficult to see the design properly on Slack's photo. I would say that Slack has got it wrong on pattern 256 - it does not look like 274962, or any registered Derbyshire pattern.

As to whether a pattern was also registered, it's just going to depend on whether it was a unique design or not. Many of these drinking vessels are virtually impossible to pin down to a specific manufacturer. The pattern for 246 is very generic, I've seen it on a few 1860s - 1870s pieces, though not on a goblet.

We're getting enough Derbyshire pattern numbers to start to have a stab at their system, in the absence of any surviving pattern sheets. Molineaux Webb went for sequential and range based numbering, and it looks the same story for Derbyshire. So far we have:


Tumblers
88

Goblets / Glasses
246 249 256 258

Salts
308

No number
Celery / Butter Dish

So pattern 246 is the earliest known goblet, probably early 1873. It would be interesting to know what the numbering started off at.

Offline Paul S.

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Re: John Derbyshire goblet pattern No. 246.
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 05:51:08 PM »
thanks to both for your replies.
 
Unfortunately for us, nowhere in Slack or Thompson or the images at Kew, is there any cross referencing between Registration Nos. and JD pattern Nos.  -  and it's this omission that makes life difficult.
         
When he was active, Raymond Slack had more written information than anyone else - his work appears accurate, usually, although I'd agree that he does seem to be wrong in suggesting that his pic No. 4 was Registered on 08.08.1873.          Slack must have had access to JD's pattern Nos. in some form or another  -  unfortunately, his archive was dispersed (unsatisfactorily), and I doubt that he'd now remember the details, but might discuss with him.                Do people know where he might have sourced such details as JD pattern Nos.??
               
I now have many hundreds of pix from the Kew Representations books for the Board of Trade 43 series.........43/60 - 43/61 - 43/62 and 43/63  -  four groups covering the period September 1842 to January 1884 - and some of these pictures are, for me, very recent acquisitions, and which I'd not viewed until today.           
I don't have a picture for every Registration - more a selection relating to GMB interest (excludes bottles - so don't ask me for a Kew pic of a bottle) - but I should have pix of all tumblers/stemware/drinking glasses, and I've split each of the above four groups into two parts, in essence separating drinkware etc. from 'other glassware'............thus giving a total of eight sections................the thinking is that it'll make searching easier!
 
Have now looked at the section for tumblers/stemware under ref. BT 43/62, which covers the period October 1870 to February 1879 (the JD period), and can confirm that I have Kew images for Registrations 274962 and 274963.   
Have also looked at the corresponding 'other glassware' section for the 43/62 group, and see that I also have Kew pix for 274961 and 275756.                        Watermarked pix are now attached for each of these four Rds., although it doesn't help to with identifying JD pattern Nos. with Rd. Nos.     
 
Although BT 62 covers a period of something like nine years  -  including the entire life span of the JD factory (1873 - 1876)  -  there are remarkably few Registrations for drinking glasses/stemware  - with only seven goblets, and these include the two for JD.       It's possible that some additional Registrations for drinkware are amongst the 500 or so 'other glassware' pix which I've not yet had a chance to look at, although bearing in mind the utility nature of most of these goblets, their absence may be simply due to a lack of Registration in the first place.           For example, of the 15 or so pressed goblets I possess, this one is the first that I've found which carries any sort of mark
 
Fred's pattern 256 is definitely No. 3 in Slack's book pic, but is missing entirely from the Kew images, so as you say it may well be an item that was never Registered.
 
Re pattern 258  -  I'd agree with Neil and believe we can say reliably this corresponds to 274963  -  confirmation from Rob's picture and the attached Kew image (assume also there is a No. 259 on the goblet itself).
I've noticed that it is possibly easier to differentiate these goblets by looking at the design of the stem.............  pix of bowls are sometimes lacking in sufficient detail, making id unreliable.
 
I've only just started looking at the Kew pix for goblets etc., and if I find further information on JD I'll post promptly..............meantime hope the attached are useful  -  and hope I have all the above details correct. :)

thanks again to both of you for the replies.             
 
 
 

Offline agincourt17

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Re: John Derbyshire goblet pattern No. 246.
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 07:04:23 PM »
Thank you for the photos from Kew, Paul.

Thompson & Slack were truly great pioneers in listing glass design registrations and presenting them in an accessible form to collectors and researchers, but the lack of illustrations of so many of the designs is still a virtually insurmountable hurdle in many cases to those without easy direct access to The National Archives at Kew. Your provision of copies of the design representations (and also confirmation of the entries with the other registration details in so many cases) is a great leap forward in the furtherance of knowledge about glass design registrations, and I would like to express my profound appreciation for all your efforts.

Fred.


 

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