Topic: Function of 19th C. Glass?

[oldglassman]

Hi ,
            IMHO in all my years in glass I have only ever seen these referred to as ale glasses,but like most of the glasses we have put names of drinks to for example Ratafia glasses based on there shape I think its really a lot of guess work going on unless contemporary evidence can be produced for a glass having a use for a specific type of drink , earlier ale glasses are shorter ,and it is stated these were for' Short Ale' , a stronger type I believe . as for this one having had a flair removed I see no evidence of it having had a flair from the profile of its sides. these glasses are very common both here and in continental Europe and I believe were produced over at least a hundred year period , later ones I have seen in France being called 'Bistro Glasses '.
 My money is on a cut down ale/bistro glass.

cheers ,
                Peter.

[Paul S.]

yes, I also forgot to say welcome to Simon..............so welcome from me as well. 

I going with Peter on this one................    I've seen shed loads of celeries from the C19 and cannot imagine these ales being made specifically for such a use...........            Celeries have a much wider capacity, and remember that the Georgians and Victorians loved to make celeries to look flamboyant with cutting etc., plus the flared top.           I'd say that on the average C19 celeries were at least twice the capacity of these ales - if not a lot more.
Certainly in the more narrow sort of ale such as Simon's, you'd barely get one stick in them

Anyway, off to Kew now - for Fred again  

[SNJ]

Many thanks to all who have replied - much better response than I'd anticipated and thanks to Paul for the photos, great for comparison and all the info. Thanks too for the welcomes.

To clarify, the top has definitely been ground flat on the top surface and then the outer and inner edges ground at an angle to achieve the bevels - I suppose they were trying to achieve a rounded effect. The bowl length, from bottom of the lowest lens is 11.6cm while the 6.2cm diameter.

Without knowing much about glass, I would say that logic would dictate this not being a celery vase. Victorian society seems to have been concerned with obvious shows of affluence, the bigger the better. A display of four sticks - the approx. capacity of this glass - wouldn't have impressed anyone! I suppose it might have been suitable for a budget conscious household, though.

To go off topic slightly (apologies) could anyone please direct me to any glossary of terms for cuts of glass - lenses, punties, printies, flute cut, petal cut, slice cut, etc., etc.?

[Paul S.]

I can't think off-hand of a link for terms solely for cut glass, but two books I'd recommend - although neither are modern - are.....E. M. Elville's 'English & Irish Cut Glass', and G. Bernard Hughes 'English, Scottish & Irish Table Glass'.           As you'd expect, they concentrate mostly on the earlier periods, but are comprehensive and there isn't much you'd need that isn't in one of them somewhere.
Peter might have better ideas for links and/or books...........but hope you stay with cut glass, we need all the support we can get.

Having a few of these narrower ales, I can't imagine being able to shove four sticks of celery in one  -  unless you didn't mind the stuff coming out in small pieces

[SNJ]

Fair point about the celery but I was thinking about the poncy trimmed celery sticks available in the 'classier' foodhalls not the more manly heads of celery from Asda!

Anyway, thanks for the bibliography - I'll try and get hold of them. I have to confess that I have no particular allegiance to cut glass - although I'm certainly not averse to it either - but when listing old glass on eBay I want to be as accurate as possible. While researching, I find it common to find several near identical glasses all described differently (annular or blade knop, for example - the difference seems slight). This is not just other eBay sellers but the websites that sell items for jaw dropping figures. Basically I don't want to give an incorrect description or sound like a pillock... 

[David E]

There are a few online glossaries and dictionaries about:
www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/glossa-e.htm
http://www.cmog.org/research/glass-dictionary

The Corning one does also give a few accompanying photos, but does have a US tilt on things.

Also:
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/glass.htm
These Glass Notes have a lot of other topics worth exploring!

I agree at those sort of sizes that this is not a celery.

[Paul S.]

I'd agree that the Great Glass site is comprehensive and very useful when it comes to most of the terminology we use regarding glass, although there may perhaps be some omissions regarding specific references for cut glass.
Descriptions such as..........   hollows, splits, fan escallops/shell borders, strawberry diamonds, relief diamonds, cross cut diamonds, mitres, arch and point, Van Dyke rims, flutes etc., but I doubt that you'd need much of this for ebay.
Great Glass seems to cover the variaties of knops, bowl shapes, feet etc., so you should be o.k.

Would also agree some caution re the difference in U.K. and U.S. descriptions..........    I'm not criticizing, remotely, it's just that there are differences of opinion which might, on occasions, cause confusion.

Some while back Frank Andrews added a Museum of London link which appears very useful, although I doubt it rarely sees the light of day   - 
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/glass.asp      ..........   and Lustrousstone added a glass glossary from the same source........   www.museumoflondonarcheology.org.uk   

[Paul S.]

sorry, that last one seems to have gone wrong  -  will try to locate correct details and replace.

[Paul S.]

hopefully, this will..............     https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FCBB7609-4C5A-48A1-9082-F42EBA062F4B/0/post92molglass_glos.pdf&sa=U&ei=86QpUqTXAo6g7AbxpICgCA&ved=0CAcQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE9MQ2fqhtUx46xvsuHfXgSkiisEw

[SNJ]

Thanks very much - I have looked at Great Glass before and it's very accessible to the relatively uninitiated such as yours truly. The Museum of London glossary is incredibly erudite and thorough; it took 20 minutes just flicking through casually to reach the end. At the risk of sounding puerile, I never imagined so many glass terms could have double entendres. Anyway, when I've got a bit of time I'll spend a little more time wading through all the different sites and links provided...