Topic: Spanish goblet

[Antwerp1954]

I've just bought two of these glasses but one of them s in very poor condition being glued together and bits missing. The auction house say they are attributed to La Granja de San Idelfonso. I can find very little on this glassworks.

The glass is 25cm tall - it's big! What would it be used for?

What date would you ascribe to te glass?

To regild or not regild? What are your thoughts on this type of renovation. Someone had used gold paint to redo the gilding round the bowl rim. I've now used paint stripper to remove the paint and reveal the worn gilding.

[flying free]

would it be possible to supply clear base shot photos of your pieces please?
Also if you roll up a piece of dark paper or some dark material and put it inside your glass, then the detail might show up.  It's not possible to see any detail on your pic (not that I could help I'm afraid, but it would be nice to see the detail of it   )
Also it does help if you do your searches in the language of the glass.  Some of the museums in Spain have pictures or pieces of La Granja They are few and far between,but I know they are available because I've done searches for La Granja.   If you use google books you might also come across pictures in books where some of the pages are available online.  But that does normally require searching in the original language.  It takes time
m

[Paul S.]

it would be worthwhile asking the auction house their source for this Spanish provenance.            There is a little information in Ward Lloyd and Dan Klein's book 'The History of Glass', but it's really very meagre and unhelpful for this piece  -  apparently a royally owned glasshouse which started somewhere around the middle of the C18 and seems to have closed during the C19.         Unfortunately, wine glasses are not one of the groups of items that the book describes as being from this factory, but gilding they certainly produced, which again, according to the book was a cold process and consequently not long-lasting.

I don't think the purists will like your suggestion of re-gilding - I get the feeling that original condition is all important - tinkering with history is frowned on generally, as it misrepresents the piece - especially if selling at some time.                         I've some 24ct. leaf which I use in bookbinding - so thin that if I cough or move quickly it tends to fly off and become useless.     This could be used over a natural adhesive such as egg white and burnished when dry, but would look new and so obviously wrong on an antique glass.             

[flying free]

There's some background information here (using google translate so you have to read it and get the gist of it as it's not an absolutely grammatically correct translation
http://www.soumaya.com.mx/navegar/anteriores/anteriores07/agosto/Granja.html

Otherwise there was an exhibition a couple of years ago of La ~Granja glass I believe but I can't find the info at the moment.
There are pics of the glass here as well
http://www.unaventanadesdemadrid.com/madrid/museo-nacional-de-artes-decorativas-ii.html
m

[Antwerp1954]

Many thanks.

Stuart

[flying free]

You're welcome - could we see some more pictures in close up of the decoration please?
thanks
m

[oldglassman]

Hi ,
          I think you need to look elsewhere for the origin of this 1 , i would think its Saxon or Bohemian , the facet cut bowl and knop and the type of decoration suggest this to me , la Granja decoration is usually engraved before gilding and usually a stylized type of rose or other flowers.
As to date i would think mid 18th c ,what was it used for ??  getting drunk !!! , large goblets are thought to have been used in civil and public ceremonies and gatherings , weddings etc for communal drinking,those who are members of the Glass association can view the selection of 50 goblets which I displayed at the Cambridge glass fair a few years ago , some with a capacity of 2 litres and more.
 The gilding should be left alone , apart from being a very expensive(more than its final value) job to have it properly done ,it's just not the done thing for reasons already mentioned .
  Below is a 14 ins goblet from the exhibition which I catalogued as Bohemian. (stem with repair)

cheers ,
               Peter.

[Antwerp1954]

Hi Peter

Many thanks for the picture of the goblet. The style and pattern of gilding in the glass pictured is almost identical to that on my glass. The pattern on the top part is indeed identical as are the swags.

The pontil is ground out but I understand this was done relatively early in Germany/Bohemia.

Looking at my copy of European Glass from 1500-1800 (The Ernesto Wolf Collection) there is a glass (no.63) from 1720 with a lightly polished pontil mark. It also has a facetted inverted baluster stem (made in Silesia). This book should be renamed "Glasses to drool over".

Having scanned through the book I see many similarities between the German and Bohemian glasses and the one I have.

I wonder whether this was originally a covered goblet judging by the way the 12 sided facetting changes to a circle just below the rim of the bowl.

[flying free]

thanks for your pictures

I can't speak for your glass, but many Bohemian bechers and goblets had the slightly inset deep gilded rim and were not covered pieces.
m

[oldglassman]

Hi ,
       Most lids were made to fit inside the glasses so I don't think the ridge is an indication that it started life with a lid ,but its not impossible.

  cheers ,
                Peter.