Author Topic: Pedestal paperweight. Faked Schneider signature  (Read 18803 times)

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Offline Leni

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Pedestal paperweight. Faked Schneider signature
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2006, 04:52:42 PM »
I've asked Jackie Lindsey if she has time to 'look in' and give us an opinion   :D
Leni


Offline Jackie

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Pedestal paperweight. Faked Schneider signature
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2006, 05:45:01 PM »
Mark when you say that Murano glassmakers fake Shneider signatures on weights - how do you know that they are Murano??  Do they also put a Murano label next to the Shneider signature?? Why would Murano glassworks fake such a signature when they can sign it with their own glassmasters names?  I think it is far more likely to be a Chinese copy.  I agree with Simone that it looks Chinese - that was my first gut reaction.  But it certainly does not look like a Murano weight to me.


Offline Leni

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Pedestal paperweight. Faked Schneider signature
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2006, 09:46:42 PM »
Thank you very much for your time and your expert opinion, Jackie :D  

I didn't want to commit myself before, but it certainly looks like a better quality Chinese weight to me.  While the glass is very clear, and the blue  is a lovely intense colour, the 'petals' do have a slight similarity in shape to those in this 'dime a dozen'  :wink:  Chinese weight from my collection, which is a common Chinese flower shape. http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1982  
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1983

I haven't seen Chinese pedestal weights before, but I am not surprised if they are now making these.  Nor am I surprised at the quality of the glass, which has much improved from the greasy, yellowish glass of previous years!
Leni


Offline Artofvenice

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Murano? I don't think so...
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2006, 10:57:58 PM »
Hi, I have seen and sold many, many Murano paperweights, made by different glassmakers (as Alt, 3 fiori, Millefiori). I have seen (but never sold) several paperweight made in China. My idea is that this one isn't made in Murano, but noi in China too.
Obviously I can be sure at 100%, but it looks too perfect compared with the other pieces made in CHina, that I have seen up to now. The glass looks to clear, same the flower.
Concering the Murano origin, I have seen pieces with the flower inside here, but never with that kind of base. The master glassmaker who worked for 3 Fiori, than for the new company, is very good Murrina canes maker, but he isn't great to shape the soft glass; instead in this piece the base/stem looks very simmetrical, with a perfect connection point between the ball and the stem.. A good glassmakers specilized in blown glass (as alzate, classic vessels and vases, or goblets), can be able to make a such perfect part. At the same time, I know also that they don't have any kind of moul with that shape.
So... If it is made in Murano it was made by somebody that I don't know, but there are so few glassmaker here making paperweights and I know personally all them.

At the end my opinion is: No china, no Murano, but somewhere else. I don't know where.

Sincerely

Alex

http://www.artofvenice.com


Offline wrightoutlook

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etc.
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2006, 04:42:32 AM »
Wow. This is getting good. I take your comments seriously Alex. I never thought for one second that it was Chinese. Mark believes Murano, and until I can get a declaration, I'll hang on to Murano. If the Chinese were making these, where are the rest of them? They simply don't do singles or even dozens. As stated, ad infinitum, the glass is too perfect and not soapy to the touch, and the flower too pristine.


Offline aa

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Re: etc.
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2006, 01:39:47 PM »
Quote from: "wrightoutlook"
Wow. This is getting good. I take your comments seriously Alex. I never thought for one second that it was Chinese. Mark believes Murano, and until I can get a declaration, I'll hang on to Murano. If the Chinese were making these, where are the rest of them? They simply don't do singles or even dozens. As stated, ad infinitum, the glass is too perfect and not soapy to the touch, and the flower too pristine.


I visited a glass factory outside Shanghai a couple of years ago. The two masters there who were stem-ware experts were Roumanian. It is quite possible that there are also master-glassmakers from other countries maybe including Italy, working in different parts of China training young people in a similar way to the Roumanians.

I realise the Chinese debate is contentious and time-consuming and unfortunately I don't have the time to get involved with this at present. However, I also attended a design seminar recently where a Danish designer who has relocated to Beijing gave a very interesting presentation, in which he pointed out the size of the Chinese internal market and the fact that Chinese exports account for a very small proportion.

A lot of the old cliches about the Chinese market are just that. You only need to look at how Liuligongfang who make the most superb work, granted in Taiwan, have pretty well overtaken the rest of the world in their speciality. And just a few years ago people were as disparaging about goods made in Taiwan.

I apologise in advance if this stimulates a frenzy of replies, since I won't be able to comment ....because with the National Glass Fair coming up at the weekend, I have some of my own more zany paperweights to finish, and next week we have a trade buyers event to coincide with the Pulse trade fair. So I shall be conspicuous by my absence from the board for a while!
Hope to see you all in Gaydon on Sunday. :D
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Offline Frank

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Pedestal paperweight. Faked Schneider signature
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2006, 01:47:20 PM »
Frank A.
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Offline wrightoutlook

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keeping an eye on the prize
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2006, 03:20:17 PM »
The Chinese question is interesting because of the geopolitical nature of the issue.

I believe others have already mentioned this in myriad threads, but regardless of what leaders of mainland China believe, the reality of the world is that there are two Chinas. Mainland China and independent, free, democratic Taiwan. This may be upsetting to Beijing, but I won't get bogged down in the politics or semantics of it all. The actual map of the world, the mindset of Taiwan, and representation at the United Nations confirms there are two Chinas.

I believe that when people write - either wrongly or rightly - about poor-grade and lesser quality Chinese paperweights they are writing about some of the work made in Zibo City in the Shandong province of mainland China. Mass market decorative items - vases, animals, ornaments, clowns, paperweights, etc. Utilizing the restrictve nature of contemporary Chinese society, the government has established industrial zones in Mainland China or Red China or the People's Republic Of China (whatever you want to call it). The glassmaking zone is Shandong and Zibo City, specifically. I realize this may be difficult for some to understand or appreciate, but that is the nature of Beijing's industrial policies. There is a steel zone, a glass and ceramic zone, a clothing zone, an appliance zone, a computer zone, an electronics zone, a car zone, etc. Of course, lack of specific freedom notwithstanding, these zones have carried China on a wave of superb economic success.

The mass-produced Chinese paperweights and vases from Shandong are not representations of artisitic achievement or individual craftsmanship. It's a society based on the concept of the collective. Mass market wins. Individual expression is not high priority - yet.

HOWEVER, there are glassmakers on Taiwan who are ARTISTS (such as we have in the West; people like Tarsitano or Trabucco or Chihuly or Secrest or Muller) and these Taiwan artists create unique and exquisitely crafted glass objects. They are Chinese as well, although I gather they are Taiwanese Chinese.

Therefore, in stating the above, I wish to return focus to my original debate. The facts are these, right now two people herein have written that they have pedestal paperweights of superb design and crafting that are signed Schneider. Myself and Mark.

As I've stated, there have to be more of these Schneider weights and somebody made these weights. One of the things I've noticed is that there is not a lot of written history about Murano. I am always suprised how few Murano works (vases, lamps, weights, etc.) are signed. Yes, there's 3 Fiori (now gone) but far too many Muranese creations are unsigned or had labels that are long gone.

Why is that? What was in the Murano mindset that made the workers and owners of the factories there not significantly sign their work?

If we were all detectives, we'd state the facts. There's a pedestal weight. It's a beautiful and top-notch piece. It's signed Schneider. Two people have an object like this. One lives in California; one in Chicago. Is there some importance to be placed on the fact that both live in the U.S.A.? None of the experts can precisely pinpoint the source of the pedestal. There have been good clues, but so far the answer is elusive.

I wish more Italians would read this board, especially anyone from the area of Venice or actually from Murano. But Schneider is a German name. So, we're back to square one.

At the moment, my gut instinct tells me that these pedestals were made on Murano and were imported by a company or person called Schneider.  I wish there was some vital ledger or piles of paperwork that ultimately answered the question.

Of course, it's sort of exciting to think that out of all the paperweights in the world and of all the paperweight collectors in the world, there are only TWO examples. And, of course, we know (and I know) that this cannot possibly be true.

But, if it is - very cool.


Offline Frank

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Re: keeping an eye on the prize
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2006, 03:57:50 PM »
Quote from: "wrightoutlook"
I wish more Italians would read this board, especially anyone from the area of Venice or actually from Murano. But Schneider is a German name. So, we're back to square one.


Did you miss the earlier post by Alex, ArtofVenice? He is a Venetian and in the Murano Glass and paperweight trade. He also said that he knows personally most of the paperweight makers in his hometown of Venice.
Frank A.
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Offline Frank

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Pedestal paperweight. Faked Schneider signature
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2006, 04:01:49 PM »
Quote from: "wrightoutlook"
The mass-produced Chinese paperweights and vases from Shandong are not representations of artisitic achievement or individual craftsmanship. It's a society based on the concept of the collective. Mass market wins. Individual expression is not high priority - yet.


This is fairly close to the philosophy of Salvador Ysart as far as paperweights are concerned. Setting up the canes was 'womens' work, the men finishing then back to the women for signing. He also told Paul that he was wasting his time messing about with paperweights. Yet these weights are regarded as collectible.
Frank A.
Please help preserve glass web-sites for posterity by donating to The Glass Study Association a non-profit organisation.
Scotland's Glass - Ysart Glass
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