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Author Topic: Jules Barbe for Stuart & Sons or are they Webb? Drop head Dab trail -peacock eye  (Read 789 times)

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I've asked the mods to amend my post above when they have time, to make it clear that pattern no. matches are needed to establish that the 4 vases  (Adam's pair, BMG vase and the new Fieldings' version I've just added) that appear to have rose & gilding matches to 'Barbe's daughter' and my matched pair of vases, are actually Stuart vases.
Until they are pattern number matched it is still possible they may be by another maker. 

My comment on the timeframe I mentioned in my post above re the added  Fieldings' vase, are only made on the basis that it could be a Stuart vase.  If it is another maker then that timeframe may well be different and the Fieldings' date of late 19th century could of course be correct.

Also the two probables that have a different gilding flower will  have to be pattern no. matched to establish whether they are Stuart vases.  They also require matching to  the 'Barbe' gilding pattern in Manley item 243.  Identifying this second group of vases/gilding pattern as Barbe  assumes that the vase in Manley is gilded by Barbe.  That is open to correction if any more research surfaces.

I'm going to Broadfield House next week and will check through the resources they have to try and match them all.  I'll report back.

m


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With reference my posts above:

'I think it is possible the Manley vase item 243 could actually be a Stuart vase.  It is also possible this is another Barbe gilded pattern.
Both points require more investigation:
- Firstly to match the vase size and shape precisely to a Stuart pattern number. 
- Secondly to try and match the gilding on the Manley item 243 to gilding on the two linked vases (or any others that may surface).'
m


A member of the board has contacted me directly to tell me that this vase shape, Item 243 in Manley, has been seen by them in a golden amber colour   c. 1930, acid marked "Stuart ENGLAND".   
 
Which begs the question -  how robust is Manley's assertion?
'This is one of a series of soda-lime bowls and vases produced in 1900 with "Cairngoram drops with green centres on flint".  This is from Thomas Webb's records, and it's their spelling.'

I haven't seen the Webb pattern books, so I suppose it is possible they produced exactly the same item. 
However, should it turn out that Thomas Webb did not and this vase is definitely and only a Stuart pattern, there are now a number of queries over Manley's comment:

- Firstly, he actually asserts the the bowl was produced in 1900 rather than saying 'produced from' or 'c.1900', which given the coloured centre of the eye does not appear to be true (see CH British Glass - coloured centres to Webb's  'eyes' added in 1907)

- Secondly, he calls the eyes 'Cairngoram drops' and asserts this was the exact spelling from Thomas Webb records.  Therefore, if he had actually seen the Thomas Webb records to see this recorded, and if this vase is not Thomas Webb but Stuart, then Thomas Webb's 'Cairngoram drops' must apply to some other decor.

I do not know how the' 'Cairngoram' drops' comment from Manley fit in with the Stuart peacock eye trail style vases that are often called 'Cairngorm'.  I've not seen the pattern books of either.
 
All I can add for now is:
-  in CH British Glass 1800-1914 the Thomas Webb peacock eye trail style vases (only 4 sketches shown which may be a very small portion of their total production) shown on page 436 are indicated as '"teardrops",  'inverted "teardrops"' , '"Cats Eyes" teardrops' and 'coloured teardrops'. 
- In CH 20th Century British Glass Charles Hajdamach refers to this style on page 37. 
He says 'Thomas Webb and Sons introduced their version of twisted 'teardrops' in 1901, re-worked the idea into inverted 'teardrops' in 1902 and in 1903 re-christened the peacock trail as 'Cat's Eyes' teardrops.  In 1907 Webb's introduced coloured centres into the eye of their peacock trails to keep up with their competitors.'
and
Looking at his sketches in CH British Glass 1800-1914 it is my observation that the shape of the 'teardrops' does not match the shape of the peacock eye style eye on this bowl in Manley.
m


p.s. for other discussions on the board regarding Manley's 'Cairngoram drops' phrase see
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37964.msg315873.html#msg315873
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5358.msg44632.html#msg44632
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1901.msg48443.html#msg48443



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With reference my posts above:

' 'I think it is possible the Manley vase item 243 could actually be a Stuart vase.  It is also possible this is another Barbe gilded pattern.
Both points require more investigation:
- Firstly to match the vase size and shape precisely to a Stuart pattern number. 
- Secondly to try and match the gilding on the Manley item 243 to gilding on the two linked vases (or any others that may surface).'
m


As I said above, a member of the board has contacted me directly to tell me that this vase shape, Item 243 in Manley, has been seen by them in a golden amber colour   c. 1930, acid marked "Stuart ENGLAND". ' 

To show you an example of the Manley up-down rim vase in the book, here is an example(in the link below) that I believe matches the vase in Manley's Victorian Decorative Glass (1988) Item no. 243 page 88 -  the one described as Webb's in the book.  Manley quoted the size as 26cm diameter and the bowl is clear glass with clear trails and clear wide peacock eye surrounds that have a central green eye.  It is gilded in 'panels'  on the flattened rim between each of the peacock eyes, and has a gilded rim edge.
This one in the link  is quoted as 27cm diameter but I think, given the design, the difference in diameter would be 'allowable'.  It also has the 7 peacock eyes and the up and down turned rim and I believe is the same shape as the one in the book.  The one in the link is green with red peacock eyes and is not gilded at all.  It is described as:
'Stuart and Sons, Stourbridge by William Husselbee in rare colourway'
http://www.nouveauglass.co.uk/archived/stuart-and-sons-7/

I think it is now clarified that the vase on page 89 item 243 in Manley is a Stuart vase although  I do not have a pattern number for it.  I cannot attest that Webb's did not make exactly the same shape and size with the same type and number of peacock eyes, but I think it is unlikely.

(I saw this vase in real life and fell completely in love with it but could not afford it D, so it wasn't 'sold' to me  :'( )
m
 


 

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