Topic: Jules Barbe for Stuart & Sons or are they Webb? Drop head Dab trail -peacock eye

[flying free]

I'm hoping someone can help me out either with a pattern number or, confirmation of the shape and design of the vase on page 53 of Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass.
It is the vase on the left in the bottom right hand corner of the page.
The plate description says
'Plate 101.  Vase, whisky tumbler and wine glass enamelled and gilt by Jules Barbe for Thomas Webb and Sons c.1901-10.  The vase was a gift from Jules Barbe to his daughter who kindly donated it to the former Thomas Webb works museum.  The whisky tumbler,in the 'cascade' moulded pattern, is Pattern no 25681 for 1901.  Height of vase 4in. (10.2cm).'


I can normally find many of the references from that book online, but this one it nowhere to be found so I cannot show an online image I'm afraid.

My query is I can find the trailed decor( I mean the spiral glass trailing not the gilding) on this vase, I believe for Stuart, dated 1912 (I don't know if it appeared earlier, that is the earliest I have).  But I haven't matched the shape of the vase to a Stuart shape as yet.  The vase is captioned Thomas Webb, so did Webb also do the same 'spaced spiral trail winding tightly round the neck of the rim' decor? 

I'm asking because I have two 'drop head dab tail' peacock eye style vases in the same gilded pattern, and I am sure they are by Jules Barbe (one detail is, the rose on the vase in the book is created in a specific way and my vases are done in exactly the same way, along with other things such as the very high quality of the gilding and that it matches the design on the vase in the book), but I think they were made for Stuart.  I believe I have a pattern match for my vases.

I have found two other vases with this gilding that I also believe are Stuart but  I cannot provide a definitive shape match at the moment.  I'm waiting for a piece of information that might help with this.

Is it conceivable that Barbe would have provided the same pattern for both Stuart and Webb?  I know he decorated for Stuart after 1901 when he had his own business.
Or is it conceivable that the vase on page 53 might be a Stuart vase perhaps?

The 'Drop head dabs' are applied in a very specific way on my vases. I think they are applied as a perfectly round 'pad' and then the trail is applied having been joined under the dab.  They have a 'line shadow' in the glass on all of them.  This is not an internal crack.  It is where the trail was very neatly applied. 
There is a bowl in the V&A that has a query over it's maker from what I read.  It says the bowl was 1904 and originally given the name 'Dewdrop'.  It was initially identified as Whitefriars apparently, but this was changed to say definitely not Whitefriar's might be Stuart.  This bowl is very plain in design but has a number of these dab trails around it it, straight on, not 'drop head style'.  They are applied in the same way and they have the same 'internal line shadow' on the dabs.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6709/dewdrop-finger-bowl-stuart-sons-ltd/

The other point is that the trails on the vase go right to the bottom, over the merese and then 'fold under it' ie. the foot is then applied.  I have seen other vases that are Stuart that I believe have the same thing.  But either I can't get close enough pictures to demonstrate for sure, or when I do have close pictures I can't give you a shape match and pattern number because my resources are limited - and irritatingly,although I do have about 30 - 40 or more designs that I believe I have Stuart pattern numbers for, they are not in them.

Thanks for any help or insight.
m

[flying free]

ok, I hope I've solved my problem.
This is my sketch of the Jules Barbe vase he gave to his daughter that features on page 53 in CH's 20th century British Glass.
I hope it's ok for me to do this?

So, the vase is completely clear, the trails are formed starting from under the base around the pontil mark.  I have seen a number of vases with this trailing that I believe have Stuart Pattern numbers (matched to a catalogue page that has the same pattern Number in sequence I think). But the one I want, i.e. this one, is not there.  Of the ones that feature, there are some with fluted rims and trailing and some with straight rims like this one and this lovely trailing.  There just isn't one with this diablo shape there. Of course there can be a number of reasons for that, a)  because  it is an earlier piece and perhaps discontinued by the time of the cat I'm looking at (past 1910), the vase in the book is dated c.1901-1910, b) or because they didn't stock it at that point or c) or I don't have the page it was featured on.

But the features of the vase are all very similar to Stuart pieces.   The body shape, the rim, the trailing design, and the way the trailing goes under the base and finishes (or starts) at the pontil mark etc. , clear trailing on clear body, all point to Stuart. 
As on my vase, each panel has the same decorated pattern in it, repeated, roses and leaves the same as my vase.  The roses and leaves are gilded in exactly the same way as those on my vase.  I believe the rim is gilded and in the same way as mine has rubbing and wear to the gilding.  The thickness of the vase looks the same.

Any help on sorting this out very much appreciated.

many thanks
m

[Baked_Beans]

This won't answer your question m, but it is Stuart and has a very similar gilding pattern/technique and the dabs are hidden under the rim... if you look hard enough    I know you have probably seen it before on your searches but at least it illustrates the same gilding.....


http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/footed-trumpet-vase-ca-1905/#.UwJqAdJdVJ1

ta MIke.

[flying free]

yes   I didn't put it on, but I also believe it is by Jules Barbe for Stuart.
However, I can't match that shape either at the moment so I didn't add it.
I also think one other pair of vases on this board are as well but I'm waiting for Adam to add some more pictures as that might prove the catalyst for all 4 shapes.
Thanks Mike
m

[Baked_Beans]

Oh that's good 

Interestingly, in 'Art ,Feat and Mystery' (The story of Thomas Webb & Sons, Glassmakers) 1978 by H W Woodward.. he says " In 'raised' gilt , gold (in a dissolved state) was made into a brown paste , which was painted onto a glass and fired in a specially constructed muffle, two, three or four times. The gilding was finally burnished with spun glass brushes and agate or bloodstone. The secret of Barbe's preparation died with him. " .

Woodward also states that it was Jules Barbe at Webb's and Oscar Pierre Erard at Stevens and Williams who were responsible for the innovation at the time . So Jules Barbe had something of  a monopoly on the technique and seeing that he didn't share his secrets, then the only person who could have carried out the gilding on your vase seems to be  Jules Barbe (freelance, 1900)   

[flying free]

   thank you for adding all that.
That's what I thought - and I do look at a LOT of enamel and gilded glass but this is something quite different in quality.  But I hit a hitch when I matched my vase to a Stuart shape.  Then saw the one on the Bristol Museum site which I am also sure is Stuart (and Adam P's as well, but need a full photo of those).  However I'm more than convinced  that the vase in the book is Stuart as well (she whispers).  I just need a pattern match to it or one of the others so mine is not the only one.   Of course, I could be very, very wrong then I'll have to hide away for a while 
Actually, thinking it through ...
 I suppose that means my vases would be Thomas Webb and that they did the same decor and shape design as Stuart.  So it's a win win either way 
Do you recommend that book?  Are there any jugs in it with applied lizard handles, or goblets btw?
m

[Baked_Beans]

I knew you would know all of this , I just had to add it for general info. because I didn't know about it ...but I had read the book and completely forgot ! 

It's only a small volume (61 pages, ISBN 0 9506439 04, Mark + Moody Ltd. ) and most of the photos are on the internet or in other books... There are no applied lizards anywhere to be seen    There is a small photo of three gilt Barbe enamel wines/goblets though... plus that  fab. Loving cup  !

It is a very good introduction to the story of Webbs and the author (as you know) was curator at Brierly Hill  Glass Museum from 1938 to 1966, he increased their collection from 200 to 800 pieces and built up a reference library there. 

Hope you can find those patterns , the Bristol Blue Glass (on-line) Museum certainly think theirs is Stuart

[flying free]

Well I only know it because I've also had a good re-read of CH 20th Century British glass and his older book, trying to dig out some info
To be honest, I'm a little bit wary of using that Bristol website to id glass because there are never any references or sources given to their id's although they have some lovely glass.  The descriptions are all a bit short without references.  I like to use Broadfield House Gorgeous Glass site and also the V&A (but the V&A have loads of un-photographed glass, in fact so do BH, which is so annoying).

There is also a Bristol Museum I have come across that has all sorts of stuff in it, including some amazing Chinese glass, that I use sometimes.  Do you know about that one.  I came across it quite by accident .

Thanks for searching the book for me.  Yes, I've seen the goblets (courtesy of Keith - thank you   ), I think I'd found one or two of them online.  That amazing gilded loving cup... yes that's beautiful. Broadfield House have it and if you go online you can click on it and it magnifies to an amazing extent so every pixel of the gilding can be seen.  It's quite incredible. Obviously my vases are not so mind-boggling, but then mine have applied lilypads and the cup only has handles lol.

I'm currently searching for lizards as well   I think I have another bowl by Barbe - well, I hope so 

Thanks so much for taking the time to investigate and write the book info Mike.  I appreciate it.
m

[Baked_Beans]

It's a pleasure m , I enjoy reading your threads but I don't wish to interrupt much 'cus of my lack of knowledge.

 You must be very happy with your  Barbe vases... even I can see the quality shouting at me through my screen 

I know the Bristol Museum well as I live here in good olde Bris'ol  Well worth a visit , they have a great paperweight collection too ! 

[Lustrousstone]

I'm wary of the Bristol Glass Museum attributions too. This strikes me as just tosh "Decorated with a typical patterns of ferns and leaves, the quality of the glass unmistakably points to its maker" when apparently describing a Walsh Walsh item.

It may of course be that Barbe didn't do all the gilding, he may just have prepared the secret paste