Topic: Jules Barbe for Stuart & Sons or are they Webb? Drop head Dab trail -peacock eye

[Lustrousstone]

I bet Mervyn Gulliver knows, perhaps someone would ask him at the next fair he attends

[flying free]

Mike thank you for all your efforts and leads - I really appreciate the help
Christine, that's a lovely suggestion, if anyone reading this is going to see him before long. It would be extremely helpful as now I feel as though I'm going up to Broadfield House and the only reference I'm going to get is Gulliver's.  A long way to go only to find that vase isn't in his other volumes 
(obviously lovely to see around the museum again of course, but... it's a pain the pattern books aren't easily accessible there unfortunately).

m

[Baked_Beans]

Well I hope Barbe's designs are in those original four volumes....they need to be published on the internet and in the words of Joni Mitchell you could..."charge a dollar and a half just to see 'em" 

[flying free]

I hope so too.  In fact I am going to ring the museum this weekend and see if someone can check the book for me and look it up. 
That might mean I can arrange to go to the archives after I've been to Broadfield House (depending on how long and how difficult to get there from Broadfield House - 4 miles here takes precisely 6minutes, 4 miles in Stourbridge/Birmingham could take hours ).

I thought about contacting Charles Hajdamach but on his website it says:

'Please do not contact Charles for identification requests.
Instead we recommend you visit Glass Messages Board (GMB), where many experts are available to answer your queries.'

m

[flying free]

With many thanks to Bernard :

The vase identified as given by Jules Barbe to his daughter, on page 53 plate 101 , Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass, has been confirmed as a Stuart Vase   (left hand vase - id'd in the caption as a Thomas Webb vase)

I've attached my sketch for reference so others can see at least a sketch of the vase if they don't have the book.

m



Discussion found on this thread reply nos #59-#63
 http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46323.msg316448.html#msg316448

(conversation/discussion on the Stuart?Walsh? thread cut and pasted here below for reference)
Me:
'Thank you Bernard.
And have a great and successful day tomorrow - I hope the weather is kind to you all.
'Yes I know Barbe decorated for Stuart thanks  
What I wanted to know was whether the vase in CH British Glass Page 53 bottom picture left hand vase, was a Stuart vase.
Because I have a vase with the same decoration.   And I believe the vase in the book is Stuart , but it's captioned Thomas Webb and was donated to the Thomas Webb museum by Barbe's daughter having been given to her by Jules Barbe.
a) that causes some confusion if it's not a Webb vase but is captioned as being a Thomas Webb piece
b) it's rather ironic that a Stuart vase ended up in a Thomas Webb works museum
m'

Bernard:
'Oops — wrong book.   p53 vase in Hajdamach II is Stuart.   The caption is misleading.

Please would you take a close look at yours.   I've a fabulous and rare tall 12" example in canary opalescent with canary opalescent ribs, which could have been made by picking up rods and lightly marvering them in, rather than dip-moulding, as they protrude slightly on the inside, the opposite of what you would expect from dip-moulding.

Barbe's daughter may have assumed Webb.

These date from circa 1902.

Bernard C.  '

Me:
'thank you so much!  I will copy and paste this discussion into my Jules Barbe thread if that is ok with you.
I have looked at my pair of Jules Barbe for Stuart vases (I think that is what you meant?) and there are no ribs.  The only 'bumps' that can be felt on the inside are exactly where the drop head dab trails have been applied to the outside pushing the inside in slightly.
I have also looked at my tall Stuart Peacock Eye vase and there are no ribs on that either - only 'bumps' on the inside where the trails and eyes have been applied and pushed in the inside slightly.
Your canary opalescent sounds amazing!
Thank you again.
m'

[keith]

It is Himley Hall where they keep the records ? if so it's only a couple of miles straight up the A491 then right onto the B 4176 and you're there,

[flying free]

Thanks Keith. No apparently they have a new archives department and they are kept there 4 miles from the Museum.
I will look it up and see if it's feasible.
m

[flying free]

Ok, since Bernard has confirmed the vase in CH 20thC BG page 53 is a Stuart vase (given by Barbe to his daughter)
the summary so far is:

Stuart vases with matched gilding to the Jules Barbe Stuart vase he gave to his daughter = 5 plus this one


1) My  vase  x2 – link to photos – I believe Stuart and Jules Barbe gilding as pattern match to Stuart pattern in Harrods catalogue 1909 no CH18080 matched to a Stuart pattern number in the book of 18080 and gilding matched to that on Barbe vase given to his daughter (page 53 CH 20thcBritishGlass)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55750.msg316021.html#msg316021

2) AdamP’s vase x2 (this is one of a pair I believe from reading the thread) on another thread, same gilding as mine. Appears to be Stuart ref peacock eye and trails.
More pics needed and shape match to Stuart pattern number to confirm
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5758.msg48891.html#msg48891

3) Vase x1 in Bristol Glass Museum, appears to have same gilding , peacock eye vase , att.Stuart.
Shape match needed to Stuart pattern number to confirm
http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/footed-trumpet-vase-ca-1905/#.UwJqAdJdVJ1


Update on other possible Barbe items in a similar vein, i.e. gilded on clear 'peacock eye type' vases, but not the same rose flower nor pattern:

There are two vases identified so far

1) http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/123756/c1880-gilded-posy-vase-possibly-stuart-sons/

2) Vase 312 on this Fieldings Sale March 2013 – id’d as Webb by Fieldings, possibly Stuart? poor photo so gilding not clear, shape appears to be Stuart, flower appears to be similar to that on sellingantiques vase
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/auctions/print/56


In Cyril Manley's book Decorative Victorian Glass published 1988, on page 89 item number 243, he shows a peacock eye trailed bowl that appears to have similar gilded decoration on it to the two vases noted just above:
My description of his bowl vase:
- It has 7 broad peacock eye and trails on it. 
- Each have a green eye in the middle of a clear surround and the trails are also clear.
- The bowl is clear glass.
- It has a flat broad rim that, it appears, is slightly turned up on one side and slightly turned down on the opposing side.
- It has a gilded rim and a repeat pattern of clusters of gilding in between each of the peacock eyes (in a similar vein to the other Stuart  vases listed above).
- The leaves are pointy and the flower is an open 5 petaled flower that looks as though it could be very similar to the one from SellingAntiques and the one from Fieldings (caveat - both of those very difficult to see clearly).

Manley says it is a Webb vase decorated by Jules Barbe for a friend of his:
 I quote him
  'This is one of a series of soda-lime bowls and vases produced in 1900 with "Cairngoram drops with green centres on flint".  This is from Thomas Webb's records, and it is their spelling.  The bowl was gilded by Jules Barbe and across the polished pontil is written 'July 11th 1907', but the space allocated for his signature is left vacant.'


Some comments/questions about this description from Manley and this bowl -
1) CH 20th Century British Glass page 37 says:
'In 1907 Webb's introduced coloured centres into the eye of their peacock trails to keep up with their competitors.'

Therefore although I think Manley's mention of 1900 is odd, this particular piece has a date written on it of 1907 and that does fit in with the year Webb's put coloured 'eyes' in their peacock trail pieces. 
But if he is saying this was a piece made in 1900 by Thomas Webb's then that does not fit with the comment in CH 20th Century British Glass, because the eyes are coloured.

2) My next question is, is this vase a Webb vase? or could it be Stuart? It is difficult to see the shape as there is no profile picture but there is nothing about it, from my point of view, that says it couldn't be a Stuart vase/bowl.  The maker needs to be clarified as there are many errors in the Manley book.

3) Of course, there is nothing to say that Barbe didn't do the same patterns on a variety of makers. From my reading it is clear that once he was independent he at the very least worked for Thomas Webb's, Stuart and also Stevens and Williams. However, in my personal opinion I think it is more likely he wouldn't have done that. (open to correction).




Summary:
Stuart/Barbe vases
-Only a Stuart pattern match to my vase shape at the moment. 

-I'm hoping Adam P will add more pictures but from the base pic of his vase available, the peacock eyes appear to be Stuart and the trailing up and around the rim he describes matches Stuart trailed vases. (no shape match as full picture of vase not available)

- Need a shape pattern confirmation for the Stuart vase in the Bristol Glass Museum

- Confirm whether the SellingAntiques vase is a Stuart vase and try and clarify whether the gilding matches the Manley bowl

- Confirm whether the Fieldings vase is a Stuart or Webb vase and try and clarify whether the gilding matches the Manley bowl

Other Barbe vases:

I've not spotted any others that might be Barbe, apart from those mentioned so far (plus there are three, I think, signed pieces in museums, plus the Loving Cup at Broadfield House, plus two goblets shown in CH 20th Century British Glass for T Webb) however,
Manley shows 8 pieces  on page 88 that he identifies as by Jules Barbe:

- One of which we have discussed here - item 243

- One which appears to have roses on, that seem (under a magnifying glass as pic very poor) to have been done in the same way as those on my vase. 
Gilding pattern appears different and sparse though but I think this vase might be good to investigate further- item 246

The other pieces don't appear to have any similarities with the pieces being discussed on this thread.  They are:

- A signed vase that I believe is the same as or the pair of a vase in the Corning Museum(the other might be in Broadfield House, I need to check this info) - item 245
- A Burmese flat rimmed bowl with enamelled roses on it - item 242
- Four other gilded on clear pieces - items 241, 244, 247, 248

m




m

[flying free]

Update with regards my query in my post directly above, where we are trying to identify two vases that have similar gilding style to the now identified Barbe for Stuart vases, but the gilding has an open flower and different leaves to the identified pieces.
They are these two:

1) http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/123756/c1880-gilded-posy-vase-possibly-stuart-sons/
2) Vase 312 on this Fieldings Sale March 2013 – id’d as Webb by Fieldings, possibly Stuart? poor photo so gilding not clear, shape appears to be Stuart, flower appears to be similar to that on sellingantiques vase
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/auctions/print/56

 - I referred in my post above, to an item featured in Manley as a Jules Barbe decorated peacock eye vase, but identified by Manley as made by Thomas Webb (Manley Decorative Victorian Glass 1988 Item page 89 item 243- see description in above post). 
My query was is it in fact a Stuart vase?
It has a similar gilding pattern and design to the two links above (caveat - difficult to be sure as the links above do not show clear close ups)

I have now found a similar vase from Stuart sold at Fieldings in 2011.  This one is opalescent, narrower in body shape I believe, and only has 6 peacock eye trails.  However it also has the turned up rim on one side with a turn down on the opposing side as, I believe, does the Manley vase.
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/38065

I think it is possible the Manley vase item 243 could actually be a Stuart vase.  It is also possible this is another Barbe gilded pattern.
Both points require more investigation:
- Firstly to match the vase size and shape precisely to a Stuart pattern number. 
- Secondly to try and match the gilding on the Manley item 243 to gilding on the two linked vases (or any others that may surface).
m

[flying free]

I need to add a vase to the Barbe for Stuart list:
I think this one was mentioned  earlier in the thread  but I didn't refer to it again.
It was sold via Fieldings in 2012 as late 19th century.  I think if it's Barbe for Stuart then that date is incorrect since Barbe didn't go independent from Thomas Webb's until 1901.
I believe plain Stuart vases were appearing with these spiral trails designs ( but green on clear) in similar shapes to this in the 1912 Harrods catalogue, with pattern numbers in the catalogue of CH plus the numbers in the 18000's (just for reference in case that helps the dating).
'Barbe's daughter' is dated c.1901-1910 in CH 20th century British Glass page 53.
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/4658
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/slir/w444-h333-q100/app/webroot/img/lot_uploads/5/178.jpg

Shape - narrower body/base than the 'Barbe's daughter Stuart vase'  on page 53 CH 20th Century British Glass
           - taller than 'Barbe's daughter' and possibly has one more trail
           - same vertical trails and spiral at the neck but has a frilled rim whereas 'Barbe's daughter' is straight rimmed
Gilding - Pattern design is the same as 'Barbe's daughter'
           - Quality of gilding looks good
           - Difficult to tell, but under magnification the rose looks the same as 'Barbe's daughter, my vases and Adam's vases,BMG vase.

I believe it is a Barbe for Stuart vase - so that makes 6 in this pattern so far:
- 'Barbe's daughter' - flared base, straight vertical trail, spiral neck, straight rim
- My pair - flared straight rim, bulbous body, drop head dab trail, footed
- Adam's pair - peacock eye base, vertical trail, spiral neck, (straight rim? not yet known)
- Bristol Museum of Glass vase - peacock eye rim, straight trails, spiral trails at base, footed
- Fieldings - flared base, straight vertical trail, spiral neck , frilled rim

[25 Feb 2014. Edited to add ...]
... so that makes 6 POSSIBLE Barbe for Stuart vases so far - pattern no. matches needed on three

m