Kings Crown different item maybe English

[clemo]

G'day all any help on finding out maker or pattern name of this item

I have came across 2 flint clear glass Celery Vases which look like Kings Crown but this one has ribbing running up the side which normal KC doesn't have I have also found out that there is a pic of a creamer same pattern but it has ruby stain...


I put it on the ebay glass board and they all think English and at first so did I
BUT it is so like the US Kings Crown I'm thinking maybe it is US glass


If anyone can help that would be Great..

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/la_weeba/MVC-461F.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/la_weeba/MVC-462F.jpg

clemo in Aussie

[Frank]

It might help to add a count of features, number of rays cut in base, lenses on side (8?) scallops (18?)

[Glen]

Can you also describe the base - is it gound, for example?

It looks familiar and yet......... and I can certainly see the similarity to King's Crown, but then it's not that.

Intriguing.

Glen

[glasswizard]

I agree with Glen.
King's crown was an original EAPG pattern done in 1880 by Adams&Co. reissued by US Glass in 1891.
Redone in the 50s and 60s by LG Wright and Tiffin and then again by Indiana glass in the 1970s.
The added elements, the ribbing and the scalloped rim IMHO add greatly to the pattern.
As to who made it, this is going to take some research.
Terry

[Sid]

Hello:

This question comes up every once in a while on the various glass message boards.  There are similarities to the Adam's pattern but there remain many differences.

Given the locations that it shows up most frequently, I lean very heavily to the opinion that it is English in origin.  The ruby stained example that I have seen looks very odd and one wonders if it was done much later after the glass was produced.

Sid

[Sid]

Hello again:

A couple of points about "King's Crown".  The orginal was introduced by Adams & Co. of Pittsburgh in 1890.  Adams became a member of the US Glass Co. in 1891.  The original pattern name was XLCR.

Sid

[clemo]

Hi.

Sorry had to go away for a few days.....

This vase is approx 7 1/2" high by approx 4 3/4" in diamter around the top rim and approx 4" diameter base.

It has 18 scallops around the top rim
There is 24 rays cut into the base
There is 9 round circle
There is 6 panels running around the side

I can tell you this glass is old
if anyone can help in any way that would be GREAT....I do think it may be English as I purchased it with alot of other old English Glass

Glen it's clemo here in oz and you are right this piece is very Intriguing

[Sid]

Hello:

When looking for something else, I came across this:

http://www.murrayam.supanet.com/turnbull.html

They indicate that it was registered October 4, 1893 by Mathew Turnbull with registry number Rd 219638.

Sid

[Glen]

Well, waddya know! Sid, what a great discovery. Thanks so much for posting that.

Glen

[Anne]

This is an old topic and the original pics have vanished, but Clemo's superb description matches exactly a celery vase which I picked up today. (Pics of mine to follow shortly.)   

The same item is pictured in Miller's Popular Glass of the 19th & 20th Centuries, by Raymond Notley, and is said to be an unmarked celery vase probably made in France or Belgium - see page 14 if anyone has a copy handy. (No idea where that suggestion comes from though.)   There is also one exactly the same on the Turnbull Clan website described as Matthew Turnbull celery vase: http://turnbullclan.com/museum/vmcollectibles/celery_vase.htm

Now to Sid's link to the Turnbull piece described as "Celery with thumb-print pattern. Rd 219638 4th Oct1893" ... and I have to express a doubt that this is the same as the first celery under discussion. On the face of it, it looks the same and the picture on the linked site isn't especially clear but zooming in to see more detail, this one looks to have the decorative ridges down from the edge of each scallop round the top whereas the first celery has the decorative ridges down from every third scallop.

Also, a check of Jenny Thompson's A Supplement to the Identification of English Pressed Glass 1842 -1908 (page 18) gives the Turnbull item registered design number 219638 as a goblet not a celery vase (but sadly with no accompanying picture of the pattern/item.)

Is the one Sid found a goblet rather than a vase? Hard to say as no sizes are given, and it doesn't actually state if the RD no is on the item or not.

Our member, Neeps, stated that all Turnbull glass is marked: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47.msg198.html#msg198 but the celery vase I have is definitely not.

So, I think we are looking at two different items - possibly by the same maker but not proven to be so as yet. 

Does anyone have anything else they can add that might help pin this down please?

[Anne]

A bit more on this... today I found a footed bowl in the same pattern, again not marked, but this time having the decorative ridges running down between every fifth scallop. So the ridges have been altered depending on what the form of the item is...

Putting the feet of both the celery and the footed bowl together they are identical in size but the celery has 24 rays in its foot base star, whereas the footed bowl has 28 rays.

Dimensions of the footed bowl are height 5½" (140mm), top diameter 5¾" (145mm), foot diameter 4" (100mm), 30 scallops round the rim, 6 panels, and 12 round circles.

[Anne]

Image of the celery and the footed bowl attached now for reference. Has anyone any other examples of this pattern please?

[Lustrousstone]

Today I saw this celery vase with stars between the zips. No marks though. Excuse bad camera phone photos

[Anne]

Hmmm that's a different one Christine. Thank you for adding the picture - it looks more like a variant of mine than of the ones marked with the Turnbull RD no.?

I've been exchanging emails with Ann from http://www.murrayam.supanet.com/turnbull.html and she has kindly sent me pictures of her Turnbull marked pieces and given her permission for me to add here for comparison and reference. Ann's *are* marked with the Turnbull RD no. so they are the benchmark ones (see pic below). 

Ann also said. "The detailing on yours looks slightly different - the pattern of the ribs seems to be criss-crossed lines, while on mine, it is a line of pointed diamonds shapes which stand proud of the surface." That was something I'd not picked up on, so is another subtle difference between the Turnbulls and the not-Turnbulls. Many thanks to Ann for her help and use of the photo below. 

Hopefully we may be able to pin down the non-Turnbulls to someone one day!

[cxgirl]

Just wondering if there was ever an ID on this piece. I've just found a celery that is the same as the photo Anne posted on May 16,2009. I posted a photo on the PGB board on ebay and a poster said he has a creamer in the same pattern. Hoping something new might come of this.