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Author Topic: Zoude  (Read 2865 times)

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Offline Gabriel Tomkins

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 10:44:00 PM »
Hi Antwerp

Where did you manage to find them !!!!

In English we refer to the 1st and 4th items as being "nut moulded". I believe that the Liegeois term is "Fraise" or strawberry. I would like to know how you can positively attribute these to Zoude. Ive only read books ( A.Barr) but I think these may pre-date Zoude,

http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/product/product&filter_name=liege&product_id=1027#.VRnPAGbbVIg
...and how do you tell Liege from Nizet


I love the wrythem moulded bowls. The moulding is so much tighter than English equivalents. I guess these must be lead glass if Zoude ?

Please advise, sorry but Im just 5 months into collecting and have only bought one glass, which I use ! Im just learning

Offline Antwerp1954

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2015, 06:13:56 AM »
Hi Gabriel

Welcome to glass collecting. What was your first purchase?

The type of moulding seems to get all sorts of names depending on how pronounced it is - rice grain, honeycomb etc.

The link you gave shows a glass which might well be a Zoude. Alex is a very experienced and knowledgeable dealer who knows much more than I do. However, if the glass shown contains lead, then I tend to believe it was made by Zoude and on this occasion would disagree with his attribution.

How do we begin to attribute glasses to different areas and makers. Often we can't but there are sometimes characteristics in the form of the glass which help. Reading round the subject, looking at photos and handling glasses all helps.
Nizet? Do you mean Namur?

Offline Gabriel Tomkins

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 07:35:46 AM »

Hi Antwerp

I believe the Nizet glasshouse was in Liege. I think I have read that they were making lead glass, or experimenting with it in 1720-30 or so, a long time before Zoude.
I was simply wondering if Nizet is synonymous with Liege. If not how do you distinguish between the two and those produced by Zoude, who was making lead glass. The tight wrythening seems to be very much a Belgian trait.

Ive been looking at Corning and the Zoude catalogue. I know that this is deemed to be spurious but from your pictures, those on scottish antiques and the catalogue there are definitely some patterns that seem to repeat for Zoude / Liege / Nizet glass, the nut/honeycomb/fraise moulding on bowls being one, the tight wrythened bowls and the "torsinee" moulded stems, which were obviously dip moulded and twisted before being applied to bowls.

I bought one glass from Mark West web site, an "English ale glass" , but it looks as though these were made on the continent too. Its a fascinating hobby and the endless hours that can be spent on research and trying to decipher the point of manufacture appeals to me. I have become an armchair detective in later life.

Offline Antwerp1954

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2015, 07:51:14 AM »
I've been on the Corning Museum site but don't seem to be able to view the catalogue. How did you get to view it? Thanks.

Offline Ivo

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 07:59:52 AM »
Sebastien Zoude was  located in Namur 1709-1779, founded the Zoude works in Namur in 1753 which lasted until 1818. He made full lead crystal 1762-69. Believe it or not, he did.
Louis Zoude took over in Namur 1819-1867 and opened a second works in Jambes in 1849.  He died 1854, the company merged with Herbatte in 1865.  It was closed by VSL in 1879.
Veuve Zoude Drion was located in Jumet-Brulotte (Charleroi) 1825-1878 and then merged into the S.A. des Manufactures.




 

Offline Antwerp1954

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 08:15:57 AM »
Gabriel

What is the title of the book by A. Barr? What is the full name of this author?

Many thanks.

Offline Antwerp1954

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2015, 02:15:52 PM »
Gabriel

I've now had a read of Raymond Chambon's Hostoire de la Verrerie en Belgique. The three glasses below are all reckoned to be Belgian. My own look very, very, very similar in so many respects and test positive for lead. These facts lead to the conclusion that they were made by Zoude. Once we are familiar with the form and characteristics  we can then look for similar glasses.

Chambon's book describes the glass of Zoude as demi-cristal in the it did not contain a lot of lead. Attatched are a couple of photos from Chambon's book, the first showing the glasshouses in Belgium and the second three Belgian glasses.

The Nizet, along with the Bonhomme, were a family of glassmakers in Liege.

Offline Belgian_glass

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 09:06:40 PM »
Thank you, Antwerp, for the great pictures. I too am an enthusiast of 18th century "Belgian" glass. It's great to find myself among fellow collectors.

I've been pondering over the same questions that Antwerp has formulated on this forum. Since a year or so I have been reading most of what can be found on Zoude and Nizet. The literature has not provided me with a definitive answer. Nevertheless it provides clues and I am optimistic that we will find the final answer in the future. We will be able to rely on modern chemical analyses and some attributed examples and perhaps archaeological finds in public Belgian collections.

So what do we know? Most of the information that follows is based on the following two works.
- La Verrerie Zoude et les Cristalleries Namuroises. Alain Douxchamps, 1979.
- Het Glas in België. Luc Engen, 1989.
Zoude opened his glasshouse in 1754 and immediately disposed of an important quantity of minium (lead oxide). It seems he was adding small quantities of lead to his glass, but hadn't really discovered the secret of English crystal until 1762, when he wrote to the States of Namur that the secret had been revealed to him by a labourer at a newly established English glasshouse in Middelburg, Zeeland. His purchases of minium indeed show a stepwise increase around this time. Zoude reported that four of his glasses weighed as much as six from Liège (presumably Nizet). By 1768, Zoude had to be moved to a mental hospital. He was almost certainly suffering from lead poisoning... His wife Marguerite Pétiaux took over the lead with the help of one of her sons. In 1776, they decided to gradually abandon the production of English crystal, because it was found too expensive. In 1779, Zoude died and one year later his widow reportedly tried to sell the minium stock they were no longer using.

It is clear that Zoude copied the design of glasses from the Nizet glasshouse, which had been operational in Liège since around 1710, as he copied from others. Both Zoude and Nizet produced rib and nut moulded glasses and Nizet did so long before Zoude. In fact rib and nut moulding were already applied in the Façon de Venise, see http://www.auctions-fischer.de/kataloge/online-kataloge/232-europaeisches-glas-studioglas.html?kategorie=4&artikel=47625&L=&cHash=2bdf0565cd for example. Unfortunately we can't tell from the presence of lead alone whether a glass is Nizet or Zoude. On the one hand Zoude did not only produce lead glass, but also "ordinary crystal" without lead. On the other hand it is known that the Nizet glasshouse disposed of a recipe book from 1705 in which several glass compositions are given with minium or cerrusite (lead carbonate). So it is very probable that the Nizets experimented with lead in their glass. Most likely, though, this would have happened in the earlier days, before Zoude came into play.

We can't rely too much on the Zoude Catalog, as there are serious questions about its origin, see http://www.cmog.org/library/assessing-authenticity-putative-sebastien-zoude-catalog-1762.

As a guideline I would say that if you have a somewhat primitive or stylistically early and zero or low lead glass, such as http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/georgian-wine-glasses/18th-century-continental-glass?product_id=1027#.VRsJH_msXHQ, Nizet is the most likely producer. If you have a later looking and higher lead glass, Zoude is more likely, see http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/zoude-namur?filter_name=Zoude#.VRsK9fmsXHQ . From my collecting I also get the impression that Zoude mostly produced glasses with folded feet, where Nizet seems to have produced also a lot of glasses with plain feet.

I'll be happy to participate in any further discussions.

Offline Antwerp1954

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2015, 05:05:43 AM »
Hi Belgian Glass

Great contribution. Do you have some photos of your Belgian glass to share?

Offline Antwerp1954

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Re: Zoude
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2015, 12:56:01 PM »
I don't believe the glasses below are Zoude. Does anyone have any ideas?

 

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