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Author Topic: The 'great' Dugan / Diamond Stork in Rushes Punch Bowl Geo Davidson Base Debate  (Read 3805 times)

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Offline SNJ

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I bought a Dugan Diamond 'Stork in Rushes' punch bowl today, a full eight piece marigold set including the base. At the time I noticed that the base was a different pattern but for the relatively negligible amount I paid it seemed fair. Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised to see that David Doty, on his carnival website, notes that the 'Summer Days' base is correct for the bowl. The Carnival Glass 101 website, however, asserts that it is an erroneous marriage, despite it being accepted for eons, as they note.

I have no interest in carnival glass per se, and have no reason to doubt 101 but, looking objectively, I'm not totally convinced by their argument. Much of their reasoning seems to be based on Angela Hallam's 1981 identification of the Summer Days pattern as being George Davidson though, not having read her book, I don't know how definite her assertion is. According to 101 the attribution is down to one former Davidson employee's identification but looking at the number of different carnival glass patterns in existence, I think that it would be easy to get confused, especially so many years after the fact. As a result I'd be loath to give it any more than a tentative attribution. 101 poo poos the idea of a marriage between such a pre-eminent American glass producer and a lowly English company (their derision is obvious!), although I agree that it does seem an odd combination of two patterns, even from the same factory. 101 seems to suggest that many years ago, someone joined the two and said that it was 'correct' so everyone else since then has followed like sheep. On a practical level, how easy would it be to find the bowls and bases to join together in this unholy matrimony?! You can imagine a flock of Carnival glass collectors on an evangelical crusade, scouring the States to try to mate (their term) the two halves because one expert declared they were meant to be together. In my opinion (for what it's worth) the bowl and base may well have been combined for commercial reasons: regardless of the base's manufacturer, perhaps a major glass distributor or wholesaler found that the bowl and cups alone weren't selling particularly well so took the decision to combine with a vase that, if inverted, fitted rather well under the bowl. That way, it could be argued, the base is in fact right for the bowl in that it was a contemporary marriage, while 101 could also be justified in their argument that the Diamond factory never intended for the bowl to have a base.

One final observation: the set that I bought (it came from an oldish chap who had cleared an elderly relative's house, and had several other ceramic and glass items from the late 1800s to 1930s, so it would be reasonably safe to assume that this bowl and base have always been together, rather than an inappropriate mating by some crazed Carnival collector at a later date) came with six metal hooks. When the cups are hung on the bowl's side using those hooks they rest at a crooked angle on the floor / table. If the hooks are original then the bowl would have had to have had a base for the cups to hang down correctly (as can be seen in the photo from this link:
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u495/thelasticonoclast/P8200180.jpg).     

Apologies if any of this seems incoherent and rambling. In the grand scheme of things, it is - of course - of no importance but 101 are so smug and self-satisfied with their perspective I wanted to make an alternative suggestion. If anybody wants to add their own two penn'orth, please feel free to comment. In the meantime, I'll be listing it on eBay on Sunday evening if anyone is interested (shameless plug, I know)!


 

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Offline KevinH

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Hi SNJ,

Firstly, in light of your "shameless plug" of the forthcoming eBay listing, I have moved your post to this forum in accordance with the Board policy on such matters.

If, after the eBay sale has concluded, there is further discussion on the subject of "did it or did'n't it have a base?", then we can move the thread back to the USA forum (with some editing if needed).

In the meantime, as a moderator, I am a little concerned about your use of the words "smug and self-satisfied with their perspective" in relation to the owners of the Carnival Glass 101 site. Your reasoning and views about the main subject seem well stated but the wording I have quoted could give rise to complaints and may therefore be changed or deleted by a Board moderator at some stage.

For purposes of the views / discussion, I am giving below the relevant links to the Carnival Glass 101 and the Dave Doty site pages:
http://www.ddoty.com/storkrushes.html (half way down the page)
http://www.ddoty.com/summerdays.html (full page)
http://www.carnivalheaven.com/carnivalglass102/id127.htm (Carnival 101 reasoning and comments)
KevinH

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Offline Lustrousstone

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I have seen Summer Days with Stork and Rushes here in the UK. They had belonged to the shop owner's mother and he didn't realised they were paired. He wasn't a dealer and was just selling off some bits in his gift shop. I understand that Summer Days is Dugan. Why would it be Davidson? They didn't make carnival glass.

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Offline SNJ

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Hi Kevin,

Yes, the wording could be seen as mildly offensive but it is only a personal opinion and not supposed to be a definitive statement! While I have no gripe with 101, I just think the belittling of Davidson based on flimsy evidence is a little excessive and the tone of their article precludes the opinions of others, without any real consideration of how or why the marriage might have occurred. Thanks for adding the links, by the way, totally forgot to do it.

It's interesting to see the provenance of other pieces which also seems to justify the idea that the two patterns were always together. It would be interesting to find out a little more about the Angela Hallam book. Does anyone please have it and is able to quote the relevant passage(s)?

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Offline Glen

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I’d like to add my two pence worth to this delightful conundrum. Oh heck, it’s worth more than that – I’ll get stuck in and add six penn’orth!

I’ll begin with my conclusion, so that you don’t have to wade through all my jibber-jabber about glassmakers, colours, authors, wibbly-wobbly punch bowls, spilled drinks, drunken conversations, mis-attributions and fantasies. My conclusion is that Dugan-Diamond made both the Stork and Rushes punch bowl and the stand / base (aka Summer Days vase). In my opinion, Davidson was not involved in any way whatsoever.

SNJ, you asked if anyone had the Hallam book. My hand is up! Yes, me, I’ve got it. The text for the “Summer Days” vase begins thus: “This is one of the most attractive of English vases”. Hallam goes on to describe the vase, its size, pattern, known colours of amethyst and marigold, and then closes with this: “A retired Davidson glassmaker can recall turning them out”.

Note there is nothing in Hallam’s text about the retired glassmaker “vividly” recalling working with the vase.  In Hallam’s original text the glassworker’s recollections were clearly not quite so colourful.

My belief is that Davidson did not make Carnival Glass. There is no archive evidence whatsoever to make such a claim, as far as I am aware.

So let’s look at Dugan-Diamond, and the context in which they would have been producing the Stork & Rushes punch bowl. At that time, punch sets in the USA comprised a bowl, a stand, cups and hooks. To eliminate a base (which lifts the bowl off the table) would have been illogical, in my opinion. It’s not what the customer would have expected, and it makes no practical sense as the cups would have scraped the table surface. Of course, Dugan-Diamond made a stand! And why not make one that would serve a dual purpose as a vase? That makes serious commercial sense. When you don’t need to impress the neighbours with punch, you can whip out the base and stick your carnations in it.

Dugan had previous form in this respect too. Their Many Fruits punch set has a base that doubles up as a comport and has cherries on it. The comport can be used by itself and it’s often not realised that it is also the punch base for Many Fruits. The pattern is different on the base and the punch bowl (sounds familiar?)

Further evidence has to be the many, many Stork and Rushes punch sets in both marigold and amethyst that are found paired up this way. How else could that have happened? In my opinion, it’s a nonsensical scenario to imagine that the base and bowl are from different makers on the other side of the Atlantic.

Finally, if you want a bit more evidence, take a peek at some other Dugan-Diamond patterns, such as their Dogwood Sprays. The flowers are a dead ringer for those on the Summer Days vase.

(Oh yes, my credentials for the lengthy blurb? Thirty years plus studying, researching and writing about Carnival Glass).

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see http://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

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Offline Glen

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PS  I think this topic is certainly worthy of posting in the main forums after the auction. :-)
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see http://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

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Offline SNJ

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Thanks, Glen. That is exactly the confirmation that I was looking for, backed with the requisite research and knowledge, along with plain common sense. I admire how delicately and diplomatically you tiptoe around what clearly appears to be an erroneous perspective!

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