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Author Topic: Fake Australian Carnival  (Read 3941 times)

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Offline Cathy B

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Fake Australian Carnival
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2006, 11:35:14 AM »
Thanks for all your work here, Glen.

I'm either going crosseyed, mad, or possibly both.

Can you have a look at 270007135094 ? All looks totally perfect, except that I think that pattern only appears on masters and not nappy bowls (ref Ken Arnold and the CGA book). Do you think he's got the wrong photo, or the wrong dimension?

Cathy


Offline Cathy B

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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2006, 11:56:24 AM »
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250006587005

Definitely going mad, here, Glen.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Does this have a seam, or is it the photograph? And is it the fact that they've bumped up the contrast that has caused the irridescence to look like it came out of a spray can? I don't actually have a nappy, only a marigold master and it's buried away somewhere. On your nappy, does the bird have that outline?

Thanks for your help!

(In Australia, 'nappy' means 'diaper', but I've been reading it for so long I no longer do a double take).


Offline Glen

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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2006, 09:18:41 PM »
Hi Cathy - quick message for now.

The first one you show (270007135094) is odd. The seller says it is a nappy (small berry bowl) and the size shown in the 5 inch: 13cm diameter small bowl. But the photo shows the pattern as it appears on the master (large) bowl. The RD is the wrong way round for the berry bowl, and the leaves are wrong for the berry....but correct for the master!

Something weird there. That's the seller who has had some very vivid and good-looking masters.

The second one (from the UK) 250006587005 - looks alright. I think what looks a bit like an edge seam in the lower part is a trick of the light. It doesn't appear to be around the top two thirds of the piece. We've compared it with our berry and it's absolutely identical.

All I can say is.......if that's a fake then it's a darned good one. That's kind of worrying in itself. The other ones on eBay that we've seen so far are clearly faked. This one is identical to the real thing.

Nightmares bekon me...............

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline Cathy B

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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2006, 09:45:35 PM »
Either that or I'm jumping at shadows, Glen, and I hope so. The first is the seller who's had some very nice looking masters - and has approx 1/2 of their wares are repros. ? ? Maybe he's just got the wrong picture, and/or dimensions.


Offline Glen

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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2006, 10:03:42 PM »
I know Cathy...I know. I've gone through all the same thoughts as you have. I've looked at the stuff that seller has and I've wondered....... But I can't see how those master Kingfishers differ from the true originals! If they are fakes....we got a problem! The small berries have so far been easy to spot. But if those masters are fake, then............

The fact is, I cannot see (on a photo) how they are different from the originals. If I could hold them in my hands then I would know for sure.

Thanks, Cathy, for directing me to those pieces.

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline Cathy B

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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2006, 10:38:12 PM »
Hi Glen,

I've emailed one buyer of some of the items, and asked her to take the items to one of the collector's assns. She was panicking anyway, with the discussion on the other board.  

I'm just thinking aloud, the old moulds surely didn't survive the war? And even if someone did get hold of them, they'd never know what to do with them. And if they had them, why would someone bother with those crazy obvious fakes?

What are other Carnival fakes like? They're usually pretty obvious, aren't they? Someone couldn't make moulds using casts of the originals, could they? Lost wax process?


Offline Glen

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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2006, 11:38:33 AM »
Cathy - this is such a wide ranging and almost impossible te answer topic, isn't it? I've been thinking along much the same lines as you.

The first notice we got of the Crown Crystal fakes was from a (so far) anonymous source stating that all the moulds were in China and were being faked. This is not proven, and could be groundless.

The first factual info was the photographic proof of Kingfisher nappy (small berry bowl) items appearing on Australian eBay (as in the recent one you showed us from April) and the photo someone sent to Dave.

Carnival collectors in Australia have confirmed that the small Kingfisher berry bowls have been seen at auctions. They are very clearly faked and there are several versions. They wouldn't fool anyone who has seen the originals.

The big problem is...are any other CC pieces being faked? And the answer is, I don't know. If they are, then they are VERY GOOD fakes.

Did the original moulds survive? Possible. But I sort of doubt it.

What are other Carnival fakes like? Well, the main ones to consider are the Far Eastern fakes of the Northwood Peacocks, Good Luck and Grape and Cable. They certainly don't use the original moulds. They have simply copied from the glass items. They are easy to spot if you are experienced. Not so easy if you are a newbie. On some there is a large N mark - and it's a dead give-away!

There have been several generations of the N fakes, over maybe a decade or two! You can see some here.
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/FakeGCable.html

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline Cathy B

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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2006, 11:17:00 PM »
Hi Glen,

I finally got around to ringing Gary. He hasn't seen any faked masterbowls, so that would put an end to it. If they existed, he would have known for sure. He is right up with the faked nappies though.

The very first faked nappy reported went to a friend of his, who had mistaken it for a pastel blue and had paid $300. That collector is very experienced, and didn't pick it up at all - it just goes to show what can happen when you are not expecting a fake.  It has a base which is ground flush to the base (as can be seen on David Doty's page).

All I would note is that people selling a lot of genuine bowls would make themselves more respectable so that they could slip in the odd faked piece.  

Cathy


Offline Glen

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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2006, 07:04:35 AM »
Hi Cathy - thanks for passing on Gary's thoughts. I've also been in touch with several other experienced Carnival collectors in Australia, and we all seem to be of the same opinion, that only the nappies are currently being faked.

A contact in New Zealand told me about a pale blue (non iridised) Kingfisher nappy that appeared on eBay a little while back. I believe it was described as depression glass. Sounds like that probably was the same on that Gary's friend bought. And I agree - yes - it just goes to show what can happen when you are not expecting a fake!

I guess our main way forward is to keep our eyes open for any further developments (while hoping that there aren't any!)

Glen
Just released—Carnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimäki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-books—three volumes available
For all info see www.thistlewoods.net
Copyright G&S Thistlewood


Offline Cathy B

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Fake Australian Carnival
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2006, 02:05:25 PM »
290024497367   ? ? ? ? ?

Glen, could this be another fake nappy?

I think it's the same sellers again under a different name. What stands out for me is the ruffling and the thickness. I can't see whether it's got that telltale seam at the rim - it might be a bit thicker at the rim, which would be wrong. ? If it is a fake, they're getting the pattern much better.

As for why I think it's the same seller, the layout is much the same as the other sellers, and the rest of the stock is the same (fake black americana iron money boxes, gramaphones, brassware with Australian place names). I've found about seven or eight user names with nearly identical stock and auction template (often with identical conditions, but they've deleted that for this auction).

Anyway, what do you think about this one?

Cathy

 

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