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Author Topic: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........  (Read 3679 times)

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Offline Patrick

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Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« on: October 18, 2014, 05:46:44 PM »
Hi,
I have looked at all posts on this much addressed subject but unable to find an answer. :)

I recently bought an early chalice with an offer on a 'Buy it now' sale on ebay Germany.

The signature is scribed rather than dremeled and maybe it could be that of 'Ettore' ......  one of Boffo's sons.

Many thanks,

               Patrick.

Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2014, 12:05:32 PM »
It looks more like a variation of a Dobson or Said signature to me, although perhaps executed by somebody else?
Ettore died in '71, I believe he was mostly his father's assistant, rather than a major maker in his own right, from comments made recently from a wfs source (I can't remember who, sorry. Memory problems.).
However, these large chalices were a collaberation between Michael Harris and Vicente Boffo. It was "Papa" Boffo who put the big trailed knops on the stems.
Cheers, Sue (M)

"Cherish those that seek the truth;
 Beware of them who find it."
Grimm.

Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2014, 04:24:27 PM »
Some images of pawmarks.
The first two are confirmed as being those of Said and of Dobson.

The other two are variations, I am not sure which is who, but they do both look quite similar to the mark on your chalice.

If the names that were written as signatures were those of Dobson and Said, it's still not definitely them who would have done the signing. It might have been other folk who had a bit of free time and did the writing, thus introducing so much variation. But your mark definitely looks like one of the variations. To me anyway.

Cheers, Sue (M)

"Cherish those that seek the truth;
 Beware of them who find it."
Grimm.

Offline flying free

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 04:47:30 PM »
  I have not studied these signatures as John and Sue have and it does look like a different hand to those shown so could as Sue says be a variation on 'E Dobson' as well.
But I can see why you think it might read Ettore.  It also looks as though it has a squiggle line under the sig and an exclamation mark after the 'name'.  Does it have an exclamation mark?  that's a bit curious.
m

Offline glassobsessed

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 04:47:48 PM »
This is a little lightweight in places but here goes anyway....

The shape of the bowl is quite rounded rather than square, that and the amethyst colour of the chalice for me places it in MH's era so roughly 1969 - 1972. The lack of date would tend to support that idea, I know of no item with an engraved date that is earlier than 1973.

So we can rule out Said as the engraved name, his just does not crop up until post 1973 (as far as I know). Which basically leaves us with only one option really, that of Eric Dobson. The only engraved names that have turned up to my knowledge are that of Harris and the two assumed to be either Joseph Said or Michael Dobson. Never heard of anything signed with either of the Boffos names, never say never, just not yet...

An early piece signed with Dobson's name is in itself unusual.

John

Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2014, 05:02:31 PM »
I hadn't considered that in nearly as much depth as you did, John. You are prefectly right - Said would not have been in a position to be one of the signatories so early on. He would just have been "one of the apprenctices", busily learning. He would not have been involved with something as complicated as a chalice!

The "Bell-shaped" chalice bowls are all Harris period, as you said, so the pawmark is most likely to be that of Dobson, (which was where I was leaning. His mark often does have that spikey sort of E shape at the beginning.

Although it is a bit odd that Dobson's signature would be on a piece which was made by Harris and V. Boffo, maybe it was during a period when they were trying out putting an "artist's mark" on pieces to see if they sold better? I think that did happen, probably around the same time as Rosenthal was being designed for the American market, and the artist's mark was required. (for example, most Japanese Globes have a Michael Harris signature on them)

There is one other signature found on some bits of Mdina - I have 2 examples, both on pieces that were post-Harris though.
Cheers, Sue (M)

"Cherish those that seek the truth;
 Beware of them who find it."
Grimm.

Offline Patrick

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2014, 11:22:22 AM »
Thank you all for your comments........

 It appears to be very hard to decipher some of these signatures because those of Eric Dobson are not consistent.

 I am going to try and find a website of handwriting experts who might be able to read the signature. I am not going to tell them what it might be because by doing that, they might be influenced.

 It is hard to say for sure if there is an exclamation mark but there is certainly a squiggle..........

Thanks again,

                  Patrick.

Offline flying free

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 11:43:49 AM »
Just interested to know, but does what appears to be the folded rim, provide any further clues?
m

Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2014, 12:41:11 PM »
 ???
No folded rims there - but it is very difficult to make out where the signature actually is.
Is it around the rim or around the pontil scar?

Is it really that important whose name is written on the base? Or who wrote it?
(But as you know, I'm not bothered about signatures at all and detest having to pay a premium for something because it has one. It's just an unseen mark on the base.  :))

I's an early chalice, so it was made by Michael Harris and Vicente Boffo. It has an added "extra" of a name written on the base, but not that of either of the makers, it was just an addition made at the time.

I believe many of the workers may have chipped in to add marks if they had free time and marks were needed.
Cheers, Sue (M)

"Cherish those that seek the truth;
 Beware of them who find it."
Grimm.

Offline flying free

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2014, 12:57:23 PM »
Sue there does appear to be a folded rim around the rim of the bowl?
And it appears that it is on a couple of other pieces I found online as far as I can see, but not on all the chalices I saw.
m

 

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