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Author Topic: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........  (Read 2302 times)

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Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2014, 01:47:37 PM »
The blowing and the signing were not neccessarily done by the same person.
 
Yes, m. Every signed chalice I've seen has had the signing around the outside rim of the foot. I have 4, (I had 5 but let somebody else have one) and have been quite interested in the chalices since ~ 2000.

I've seen MH signatures around the pontil marks, but those are from IoWSG; attenuated bottles and Seaward etc..

I've never seen any writing that scrawls across the body of the base like this before, from Mdina.

There is a lovely streak of silver swirling around the body of the bowl. This occurred when the gob of glass got slightly disconnected from the iron during the blowing, and silver metal gas escaped from inside it, to become deposited on the outside.
Originally an accident, it produced a lovely effect, so it was replicated on purpose. So the bowl of this chalice was made by somebody who could "do" that.

When it came to marking the glass, it was only done when and if there was time and the spare staff and equipment available to do it, or if a customer asked for it, otherwise it just got left blank. They had trouble keeping the shelves in the shop stocked, it sold so well.
Cheers, Sue (M)
"The really smart people know enough to know that there's too much that they don't know for them to be arrogant about the little they do know."
Prof. Ron Davis OMF

Offline Patrick

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2014, 01:54:10 PM »
Hi,
I think in retrospect my comment about Ettore's skill level was inappropriate.........  I was thinking that the writer had got Ettore mixed up with Vicente but thanks to Wolfie Rayner's research that shows Vicente could not have been there, so the article is correct.

 Ettore was Vicente's servitor at Whitefriars, the next position up from a Servitor is Gaffer. A FLYING FREE says, there is no reason to think that after some years as a servitor he would not have the skills of a gaffer......... after all he was his father's son.
 
  Cheers,

             Patrick.

Ps, At Whitefriars the footmaker would gather the glass, the servitor would blow the bowl and pass it to the Gaffer who would  apply the stem and foot and then finished the bowl with the piece either on a puntee or gadget.
 
 

Offline Patrick

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2014, 01:59:14 PM »

When it came to marking the glass, it was only done when and if there was time and the spare staff and equipment available to do it, or if a customer asked for it, otherwise it just got left blank. They had trouble keeping the shelves in the shop stocked, it sold so well.

Hi Sue,

 This is exactly the reason why I have previously stated that Ettore might have signed it.............

Regards,
                 Patrick.

Offline glassobsessed

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2014, 06:47:53 PM »
If he was a skilled glass maker it would have been far more important that he was making glass. Just playing devils advocate... If he had signed it it would simply say Mdina, like every other signed example that does not include Harris' signature.

And why would his name appear on a goblet anyway? Presumably, only if he had significant input into the design, it was not the convention for the glass makers name to be added or we would see many different names. If it was the case why do all signed goblets not carry his name?

His name might appear if there was a personal inscription but there is not.

Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2014, 07:07:51 PM »
My opinion is that it's either a forgery (because of being written in the wrong place and wobbly-ly) or just a facsimile "artist's mark", no different (really) to any of the other facsimile Dobson or Said pawmarks.

It is also odd that there is not a date.
Cheers, Sue (M)
"The really smart people know enough to know that there's too much that they don't know for them to be arrogant about the little they do know."
Prof. Ron Davis OMF

Offline glassobsessed

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2014, 07:43:32 PM »
The chalice is lovely, a really good example. Given the shape we assume it dates from before 1972. In this time period we only find either "Mdina" or "Michael Harris Mdina Glass Malta" engraved.

After 1972, the signing convention changes, Mdina is still found but now we find "Mdina Glass" then a date followed by a signature. This goblet does not conform to either convention and the signature looks wrong as Sue noted.

Ettore Boffo died in 1970 (page 26 of Mark Hill's book).

Offline flying free

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2014, 08:16:58 PM »
John you are right, it was a typo from me as below -
 'according to What ho's post it appears Ettore left Whitefriars in September 1969 and according to Mark Hill's book joined Mdina in October 1969.  He died in 1971.

-  Ettore died in December 1970. 
I apologise for my error.
m

Offline glassobsessed

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2014, 08:53:23 PM »
Sorry m, I just added that as it seemed relevant to the rest of my rambling.

Offline flying free

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2014, 09:59:49 PM »
:) but errors like that end up being re-quoted somewhere along the line.

It also does mean that Ettore was only at Mdina for just over a year.

m

Offline Patrick

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Re: Help please with Mdina Chalice signature........
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2014, 10:08:51 PM »
Hi,

I am not convinced that this is a forged signature because anyone wanting to make a convincing signature would endeavour to copy a known existing example……… This signature and wording does not copy any other known example.
 The chalice is an early one and could easily have been  made in the 4 or 5 months that Michael, Vicente and Ettore  worked together.

Glassobsessed tells us that there are known early engraved pieces with "Michael Harris Mdina Glass Malta" …… My chalice has "Mdina Glass Malta" plus the unknown signature.

I have this photo of Vicente that someone sent me some years ago when I was discussing his animals. I had not realized that  it shows him casting on a foot to what looks like a chalice. Nice to see the master at work.

 

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