Topic: Sowerby Creamer 1663 Lozenge date help please.

[brucebanner]

Can anyone help with this please, it has the Sowerby mark and a Lozenge right in the inner bowl so it's almost impossible to read, i have taken four blue tack impression the best i can get, i think the Month is July but please ignore this and make up your own opinion.

It's 4 1/2 inches in height, 2 3/4 inches across the rim not including the spout and handle and 2 1/2 inches across the base.

Any help welcome regards Chris

[brucebanner]

The blue tacks.

[David E]

Hi Chris,

Good idea using BluTack! I've rotated and flipped two of the images to produce the following. It now reads:

      III
      21
16         ??
       I

I can't quite work out the r/hand mark (year), but I hope that helps. On the Lozenge Translator this does not reveal anything, unfortunately:
http://1st-glass.1st-things.com/lozengetranslator.html

If the year mark is 'W' then the following is reported:

You have selected W as the year, which was only used from the 1st to the
6th of March 1878 with the letter G representing the month.  The only glass
actually registered during this period was on the 1st of March (Packet 8 ) by:
Percival, Vickers & Co.(Ltd.), Manchester

Using a question mark for the year reports:

SORRY ..... No glass registrations were found for parcel number: 16 on the 21st of July in any year

But isn't  'I'  the designation for August? 

[brucebanner]

Going by Slacks book it says I is for July, good idea reversing it, here is the pic of the markers mark or a blue tack impression in reverse.

[David E]

Definitely the Sowerby peacock mark.

I tried every year using the previous known data and none came up with a result. This makes me think (Paul would be able to confirm this) that this particular number was not entered into the database on this website. The last photo is clearer and makes me think it could be 'E'?

[Paul S.]

I've just done a quick scan through Raymond Slack for all Sowerby items between February 1872 and January 1884 that indicate Parcel 16.     Using Rd. Nos. thus acquired, I've failed to find this item in my list of images from Kew for that period.

As is often the case, the Registration would almost certainly be for the shape only rather than shape plus decoration.     

Are we certain the Parcel No. is 16?

[agincourt17]

Thank you for looking at the Sowerby design representations, Paul.

Definitely Sowerby pattern 1663, shown on page 52 of Pattern Book XI, 1885, confirmed as Sowerby by the peacock head trademark, of course. A matching pattern 1663 stemmed sugar basin is shown adjacent to it in the pattern book.

This is the first example of a pattern 1663 creamer that I have seen (and I have never seen an example of the matching sugar basin), so unfortunately I do not have any reference photos of the appropriate lozenge to hand for comparison.

The only two currently correlated Sowerby patterns in the #1600s from registered designs are #1672 toastrack (from RD 374774 of 18 December 1881) and  #1639 suite of tableware(from RD 380133 of  28 April 1882), so it would seem not unlikely likely that the lozenge dates from a similar period.

I too have tried the reversal of the images (and making greyscale, altering the contrast and brightness, and sharpening the image), and my interpretation seems to be 21-(probably E)-I-16, giving a date of 21 July 1881-Parcel 16 (which is, again, an ‘invalid’ Sowerby registration date).

Now, the ONLY Sowerby registration from that 1881-1882 period with a date letter ‘21’ is from 21 September 1881 – Parcel 16 (a bundle covering RDs 370370 to 370379). A lozenge for that RD bundle should read 21-E-D-16, compared to the apparent Blu-Tack impression reading of 21-E-I-16 – a 75% match for the 21 September 1881 lozenge alphanumeric signifiers, and a nearish-match for the known Sowerby registration bundle to boot.

That 21 September 1881- Parcel 16 Sowerby registration bundle contains 4 sugar basins (2 on stem, 2 not on stem), 3 butter dishes, a celery, and a sweetmeat. So at least there is a possibility the 1663 sugar basin design in that bundle (and, therefore, the matching 1663 creamer).

It may possibly be that the mould-maker or lozenge-embellisher has mis-cut one of the registry lozenge signifiers (an ‘I’ instead of a ‘D’, perhaps? – or merely wishful thinking on my part?).

Ultimately, though, the most likely definitive answer is either a Sowerby pattern 1663 creamer or sugar basin with a clearer lozenge, or from another? perusal of the Sowerby design representations for the relevant period.

Fred.

[Paul S.]

I've now looked through all of my Kew images for the period in question, and regret to say no joy in finding a creamer of this shape/pattern (these things appear not to have been called milk jugs in that period of the C19).
I can't recall how may different designs of creamers there are on Glen Thistlewood's CD catalogue, but can say that there are almost zero images of such pieces from Sowerby on the Kew Archives, for the period in question  -  for whatever reason.         

This one may be the exception to the rule, in that the Registration is in fact a decorative pattern only - showing here - that was used previously on some other shape, or a corrupt letter/digit on the lozenge - as Fred suggests.
Date wise it can occur only within the time frame of February 1872 - February 1883.

Will have to remain in limbo until we can source some clearer lozenge details.       I had the impression that creamers in general have a comparatively high survival rate, so let's hope another turns up.