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Author Topic: Stevens Williams Moresque  (Read 785 times)

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Offline Picker101

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Stevens Williams Moresque
« on: January 28, 2015, 06:45:42 PM »
Are these tumblers Stevens Williams in the Moresque Pattern  ::)

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Stevens Williams Moresque
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2015, 07:13:54 PM »
don't know whether you've already tried the Board's search facility - we have discussed this subject previously.
Have a look at this link for information on S. & W.  'moresque..... http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50347.msg284476.html#msg284476
and if you type in the word Moresque, there are other links to read.

think you can see clearly the pattern within the glass which, presumably and rather obviously, gives rise to the name.        I would suggest yours are not - could be wrong, but they look to be more modern - do you have any idea of age of these tumblers?

welcome to the GMB by the way. :)

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: Stevens Williams Moresque
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 08:38:17 PM »
Looking at the link Paul gives to previous discussions, I would say not. The pattern doesn't match that in the design registration drawing or the yellow vase in the link and the rim is cut and polished, something more common on Continental glass

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Stevens Williams Moresque
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 02:36:22 PM »
Discussions on Moresque have been infrequent, and a lack of good quality easily available images have combined to make this quite rare pattern less understood than others from the C19.
The above link provides sufficient detail to show the design, but here's another (supplied by m) which shows S.&W.'s unique pattern very clearly.....     
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH4134/

Our awareness of the exact appearance of S.&W.'s  Moresque, and its place in the public domain, may well be due solely to Mervyn Gulliver's research into this factory's pattern records, and which in his book he links to Rd. No. 137288 dated 04.11.1889.
The above museum piece appears identical to a Moresque vase shown in Mervyn Gulliver's book (page 118), and may in fact be the self same item.   
In addition, Gulliver's book includes what appears to be a hand drawn reproduction of the National Archive Registered Design 137288, matching exactly the design on his vase.             
Not everyone has his book, and probably even less have access to Kew images, so for those that have neither I've included a couple of reproductions of the National Archive image of Rd. 137288 which was allocated to S.&W. on the above date.

So far so good, and we might leave the matter there but, as with many queries, I turned to the Board's search facility for additional information on Moresque, and then became confused.

In 2006 some interesting information on 'Moresque' was posted by Dilwyn Hier, in which he concluded that S.&W. Moresque was a copy of an earlier design by T/Webb - Rd. No. 58375 of 08.10.1886.            Dilwyn omits any reference to S.&W.'s Registration 137288 (despite Gulliver's book having been published four years previously), and says that Moresque was a moulded design of irregular lines similar to the Moire design in silk fabrics, first produced by T/Webb and Registered under No. 58375 on 08.10.1886.............  see this link for Dilwyn's full reply which was posted in response to a query from Bernard...........
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=post;quote=46317;topic=5410.10;last_msg=326696
 
Unfortunately, the pictures from the above thread appear to have disappeared, so we now can't see images of what precisely was being discussed.            There were requests, subsequently, to have these images re-instated, but seems they haven't been yet.

British Board of Trade Registration 58375 on which Dilwyn based his Moresque attribution as a creation from T/Webb, is what we know more commonly as Water Wave  -  see the second attached picture from Kew, and there are small b.&w. pix of Water Wave in both Gulliver and CH.       
T/Webb's Water Wave and S.&W.'s Moresque are quite different designs, the former composed of irregular lines and the latter showing a very regimented and geometric pattern - so on the evidence of the images of Board of Trade Registered Designs 58375 and 137288, these are two quite distinct patterns, showing that S.&W.'s Moresque is not in fact a copy of the earlier Webb design.

In his book, Manley included an example of what Dilwyn calls Moresque, although Manley himself didn't describe or index the item as such (No. 291 - page 302) - and in 2006 at the time of Dilwyn's post he comments that this small dark red bowl was in his possession.         Although only a small book image, my opinion of the patterning on this bowl is that it's not S.&W. Moresque Rd. 137288, but looks possibly more like T/Webb's Water Wave Rd. 58375, which is presumably how Dilwyn would have attributed it, since he appears not to acknowledge the existence of  S.&W. Rd. 137288.

It's not now possible to be sure of which design Dilwyn was speaking when he mentions the later appearances 'in the pattern book' for 1891, 1893, 1912 and finally in 1925, as it seems that his links no longer work.      On balance, and in view of Dilwyn's comments, it's likely that these dates refer to the Webb design, but that's my opinion only.   

Dilwyn notes the fact that CH doesn't include an image of 'Moresque' - CH giving a brief mention only in the text, so not possible to be certain of the actual pattern/s CH had in mind.
However, it appears probable that CH's use of the word Moresque is taken from S.&W. factory records, since it is quoted by him when speaking specifically of their archives, but appears not to be used by this author when speaking of T/Webb.      This may give further support to the fact that Moresque was a design used by S.&W. only.

Neither is there any reference to 'Moresque' in R.S. Williams-Thomas 'The Crystal Years'.
Incidentally, why is it that Williams-Thomas lists all of the S.&W. Registrations as Class IV  -  I've only just noticed this (pages 73 and 74)   -  subterfuge perhaps??
There may be other examples of 'Moresque' in the books, but I can't see them at a quick look.

Thanks for looking, and if anyone thinks I've got the wrong end of the stick, then please comment in whatever way - good or bad.
As always apologies this is long winded but wanted to share thoughts on what appears to be some confusion that might affect future researchers looking specifically for historic references to Moresque.        Hopefully, the attached National Archive images showing the difference between T/Webb and S.&W. designs will avoid confusion.
This is in no way a criticism of Dilwyn Hier's work on S.&W. archive attributions  -  he's probably forgotten more about Victorian glass than I shall ever know.

Book Refs.      Mervyn Gulliver        -  'Victorian Decorative Glass British Designs 1850 - 1914'
                      Charles Hajdamach  -  'British Glass 1800 - 1914'
                    Cyril Manley              -  'Decorative Victorian Glass'

National Archive (Kew) Refs. - Board of Trade Registered Designs (Representations)

for S.&W. Moresque Rd. 137288      -  Ref. BT 50/128

for T/Webb Water Wave Rd. 58375  -  Ref. BT 50/74






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