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Author Topic: Dating Sabino signatures?  (Read 2315 times)

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Offline AdrianW

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Dating Sabino signatures?
« on: January 11, 2016, 02:17:34 AM »
I was wondering whether there's any way to date a piece of Sabino by the signature? For example, was there any change to the signatures when the US company took over in 1978?

I've had a quick search, both here and on Google; and I've found the relevant Glass Encyclopedia page here:
http://www.glassencyclopedia.com/Sabinoglass.html

Ignoring the signatures; it appears that the glass changed formulation around the end of WW2; and that makes sense to me. I think I can identify the difference if I can handle a piece, based on my experiences with other French opalescent glass - I think modern opalescent glass is harder and bluer than the old pieces. Unfortunately that doesn't help when looking at pictures online, as the white balance of images can be way off...

I suspect older pieces are probably more detailed (as the moulds wear out over time) but again, when looking at images online it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between a blurry photograph, and a blurry object ;)

Offline Anne Tique

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Re: Dating Sabino signatures?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2016, 09:36:14 PM »
Hello Adrian,

Maybe I'm wrong, but because the old, original moulds are still used, as I'm sure you have read, I don't think that there's a difference re the signatures.  I've seen the engraved signatures and the pressed ones, and the only difference, to me, is the quality and finishing. The older ones are just more defined, as you've mentioned. I was in Mexico for work recently and I don't think I've ever seen that much of Sabino in one day, but every piece I've had in hand, felt and looked a bit rough and unfinished, visible and unpolished seams and as you say, without any detail in the moulding and was just not good enough to justify the price.

Therefor i think, the only way to be really sure is to handle the item in hand, from a picture it's more difficult but your gut instinct never lets you down.

Offline AdrianW

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Re: Dating Sabino signatures?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2016, 01:07:22 AM »
Hi Anne,

Thank you for your response :)

Most of the Sabino I've encountered has hand engraved signatures; so I was really hoping there might be a useful difference in those...

As you say, those moulds have been in use a long time!

I'm always amazed at how little information there seems to be online for so much of the 20th Century glass; it feels so recent, yet information can be non-existent at times.


Offline Mosquito

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Re: Dating Sabino signatures?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2016, 05:06:22 AM »
As a rule, the fine diamond point incised signature is earlier -- see below for an example from a pre-war vase 'Les Colombes' (Cat. no. 7005). Modern pieces tend to have a much broader engraved mark that looks like it's been done with a rotary tool.  I also have some older pieces with engraved marks, but the tip used is much finer than that seen on the newer pieces. Will post some more examples tomorrow.

Offline Anne Tique

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Re: Dating Sabino signatures?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2016, 07:25:35 AM »
Yes of course, sorry,  :-[ misunderstood the question, thought we were talking about a different shape or type of signature if the piece would be more recent.

Offline AdrianW

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Re: Dating Sabino signatures?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2016, 10:41:21 PM »
As a rule, the fine diamond point incised signature is earlier -- see below for an example from a pre-war vase 'Les Colombes' (Cat. no. 7005). Modern pieces tend to have a much broader engraved mark that looks like it's been done with a rotary tool.  I also have some older pieces with engraved marks, but the tip used is much finer than that seen on the newer pieces. Will post some more examples tomorrow.

Thank you Mosquito; that's really useful info - and I love that vase too! That's clearly what I'd call "old French glass" :) I look forward to seeing more examples!

Yes of course, sorry,  :-[ misunderstood the question, thought we were talking about a different shape or type of signature if the piece would be more recent.

Thank you Anne - you didn't misunderstand, Mosquito has just taken things down a different path; which was unexpected - but much appreciated!

So; thank you both!

Offline Mosquito

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Re: Dating Sabino signatures?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2016, 01:03:03 AM »
A couple more examples. First is a diamond point incised mark from a pre-war poisson "Chabot" (cat. no. 5023). The second mark is engraved with a fine point (much finer than seen on current production) and is from an example of "Les Deux Coers" (cat. no. 8591). I can't be 100% sure of the age of this one but given the fine quality of the moulding and the lack of any signs of pitting/ wear to the mould I believe it's older and probably pre-war.

The Deux Cours figure also has a moulded mark "Sabino France" round the edge of the base but it's very faint and I couldn't get a clear picture of it.

I no longer have any new pieces in my collection, but you can see examples of the current style mark online here: http://www.glasscollector.net/Signature%20Pages/GlassSignaturesP2Z.html and here: http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/glass_encyclopedia/glass_signatures/glass_signatures.htm (scroll down).

Older Sabino glass tends to show a greater variety of marks. Some early Platax vases have a moulded script mark to the base. An example (miss-pressed) can be seen on Roy's black vase here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,57664.msg326930.html#msg326930

I also have a promotional item made by Sabino for the Augustin Normand shipyard. This has an acid-stamp mark, again, something I've not seen on modern production (sadly no picture as it's back in the UK).

Offline glass man

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Re: Dating Sabino signatures?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2016, 08:37:36 AM »
I was told years ago that the early pieces can feel like a bar of soap. My glass club went on a home visit some time ago where the people said that the new Sabino can be made in several different country's now. Thus the difference in quality I guess? Bob

 

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