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Author Topic: Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern  (Read 637 times)

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Offline nicky00

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Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« on: March 14, 2016, 06:57:48 PM »
Hello,

I wondering if anyone can help me with dating and any general info about these 6 glasses I have.
It would be lovely to learn a little more. 
There is very little I know about stemware but will try and include what little I do know.

The pattern  I understand is called "Fruiting Vines.
The pattern seems to be etched.
I believe you call the indented pattern fluted or flute cuts?

From my googling I have seen reference to James Powel and somebody Walsh? This is random info I know but Im stumbling around in the dark here.

The pontil is obvious but it looks like it has been ground so there is an indented circle..(I know nothing about Pontils but Im trying!)

Diameter  of opening of glass is 6.5cms
Base of foot diameter is 6.5cms
Height over all is 12.5cms
Stem is a 6 sided (pedestal?)

Are these glasses for wine, are they victorian/edwardian etc?
Any info much appreciated

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Offline Paul S.

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Re:Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2016, 04:01:15 PM »
I should put the lights on then ;) ;)

glass engravers have been putting bunches of grapes and their leaves on glass for well over two hundred years, so this form of decoration on its own tells us nothing specific other than when on a drinking glass then it's probably for wine.

You mention Walsh........    this factory did produce an entire suite of drinking glasses to which they gave the name 'Fruiting Vine' pattern, and this is characterized by bunches of grapes and vine leaves.          In addition to the engraving, each type of glass in the range is decorated with a form of scale cutting below the engraving  -  but what especially differentiates Walsh's Fruiting Vine is the pale centre of each vine leaf.... it really is quite distinctive, and if you look on the Board's search we've discussed this previously.

On each of the hock, rummer and wine glasses I have none has a treated pontil mark, so assume all made by some mechanical means - some carry the backstamp, some don't, so this not a reliable means of id.
However, my tumbler does have a ground/polished depression under the foot.

Regret your pix lack contrast and would need a dark background to help show details, but would feel confident in saying that if yours lack the pale centre to the leaves then not Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.

Powell not my area, perhaps someone else is able to help, sorry. :)

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Offline nicky00

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Re: Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 11:45:59 AM »
Hi Paul,

Thank you so much for the info .

I have taken some better photographs and would love to know the age but that might not be possible
It appears from your info not to be Walsh.
Many thanks again
Best
Nicky

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2016, 02:57:16 PM »
Hi Nicky - these new pix a lot better, and show some good decoration, so quality glasses, but regret unable to help mostly in view this type of decorative embellishment applied commonly, as already mentioned, but would agree almost certainly not Walsh.

There are some aspects that might possibly help with dating - wear or its absence  -  stones in the glass  -  but then again glasses can sit in a cabinet for half a century and then when they see the light of day they look almost new  -  so care needed before jumping to conclusions.
If I had to guess then would possibly suggest somewhere in the first half of the C20, but really not sure  -  they're nice glasses though, and the cut stems and bowls are attractive.

Forgot to make a correction to one of  your original comments..............     there isn't any etching on these, just the cutting which is obvious, and the grape and vine leaves which have been produced by engraving (using small copper wheels and possibly some fine grit to act as abrasive).               

Etching is a wet acid process where a resist is placed on the glass, usually, and the design is applied through said resist, with the glass then subjected to the acid which bites where the resist has been cut through.                This is a very simplified description of the process, but you get the gist, and fortunately the result from each of the two processes look very different, so usually not difficult to tell which one you have in your hand.

Your reference to 'pontil' is perhaps better described as a 'pontil scar'...............  just in case there is confusion with the glass worker's 'pontil rod'.................    this of course refers to hand made glasses and not machine produced pieces.
Having blown the bowl of your wine, made the stem and foot and attached all three (sometimes two), the worker needs to finish the top of the bowl and perhaps make other refinements, and in order to do this the glass needs to be held in some way.                  Traditionally, this is done by using a 'pontil rod' which is a solid (usually, but sometimes hollow) metal rod which is attached to the underside of the foot by some small quantity of plastic glass.
When the glass is finally completed, it needs to be detached from the 'pontil rod' (from the underside of the foot), and this is done as soon as the glass starts to harden and cool  -  but obviously this removal leaves a rough and sometimes sharp 'scar' where the glass and the rod part company.
On much C18 and some C19 glass the scar remains unaltered on the finished piece, but as techniques progressed and feet became flatter, it became the norm to grind and polish the scar, which is why you have the small polished depression under the feet of your glasses.

P.S.  to Mods.         As a suggestion, might be worthwhile to change the subject heading in view of the potential confusion with the 'Fruiting Vine' pattern from Walsh  -  which these glasses are not  -  in my opinion :)
 

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Offline KevinH

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Re: Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2016, 05:40:51 PM »
Mod: Thread titles changed as suggested by Paul S.
KevinH

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Offline nicky00

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Re: Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2016, 11:14:06 PM »
Hi Paul S.

Thank you so much for your indepth description. I now feel slightly if not largely more educating having read it all.
Apologies for delay in getting back to you but my computer died and I have since brought a new one.

I took one more pic for the record , so that if somebody like myself should want info there is a better view literally upon the subject discussed.

Many thanks again
Best Wishes
Nicky

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2016, 08:02:12 AM »
yes, much better Nicky - these are attractive glasses and you're fortunate in having what is considered a small set, but just to repeat that unfortunately there really is nothing specific to indicate origin or maker..................  they might have come from any one of several countries in Europe from 1850 to 1950. 

As you've discovered, it takes time to acquire the skill to produce quality photographs of clear glass.             If you've not already tried it you might find the free download Picasa programme useful for editing pix of clear glass  -  it can improve contrast and clarity etc., noticeably.   
Stick with it, we need more collectors of drinking glasses, and RIP to your pc.  :)

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Offline kathclapp

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Re: Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 02:04:33 PM »
It appears from your info not to be Walsh.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Wine Stemware Dating - Grape & Vine pattern
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2016, 06:50:00 PM »
hi Kath - welcome to the GMB.       I'm convinced it's not  -  As already mentioned, as far as I'm aware, Walsh vine leaves always had a noticeably paler centre - as you can see in the attached picture. :)
       

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