Topic: Ink Wells, Ink Bottles and Stands

[agincourt17]

Thank you very much, Anne.

Tipton and Dudley, although fairly close together, are certainly regarded as separate towns by locals nowadays, but they may have been possibly regarded as a single entity by the Census officials.

Fred.

[peternam]

Re. glass inkstand RD 270525

I have come to this discussion a bit late and I am not a glass buff. However I am interested in the history of Charterhouse Buildings (at the corner of Clerkenwell Road / Goswell Road) which is mentioned in the thread on this topic

I am particularly interested in the references to Henry Herbert (2 Charterhouse Buildings), and especially the design that is referenced at TNA. All my records indicate that Henry Herbert was a publisher of guide books. However, another tenant of 2 Charterhouse Buildings at the same time (the 1870 / 1880s) was Chapman Son and Co (Oliver Chapman was the father, succeeded by his son Middleton Chapman the late 1870s). As I say, I know nothing about glass but I have seen reference to the work of the Chapmans as manufacturers of silver scent bottles, and silver vanity boxes. There is also reference to Henry Herbert, at his bankruptcy hearing in 1884 as a "manufacturer of fancy articles".

From this I am beginning to conclude that: there was some commercial relationship between Chapman Son & Co and Henry Herbert (I had previously assumed they were distinct businesses); Chapman Son & Co manufactured glass items; and Henry Herbert was primarily a publisher of guide books but had some interest in the same type of glass items as the Chapmans

I hope this is helpful and I'd be glad to provide more information if anyone is interested

Peter

[Lustrousstone]

Manufacturer didn't always mean manufacturer in the 1800s trade lists we have found. Quite often it meant wholesaler or someone who got stuff made for them. You said the Chapmans made silver items in one breath and glass in the next. What's more likely is that they bought in glass and trimmed it with silver.

[peternam]

You are right but the point I was attempting to make was that Henry Herbert, was (probably primarily) a publisher of guide books (such as “The Hotels of Europe” published in 1873, “Herbert’s Metropolitan Hand-book for Railways, Tramways, Omnibuses, River Steamboats and Cab Fares” in 1876, a Parliamentary handbook published in 1880 etc). Thus the registered design for “An ornamental design for a glass inkstand” is unexpected. And maybe Chapman Son & Co should be the focus when it comes to glass.

Peter

[Lustrousstone]

It's not uncommon for people to have registered glass designs that seem totally disconnected from their day jobs. Chapman and Son seems a bit of a red herring in this case

[peternam]

I have several examples of the work of Middleton Chapman - see attached example (at least I hope it's attached, I can't see if it is). This suggests that Henry Herbert is more likely to be the red herring

Peter

[Lustrousstone]

No, Henry Herbert's name and address are on the design registration at the National Archives

[Paul S.]

Hi Peter - welcome to the GMB, and yes, we can see your pictures - good quality.            

In an effort to avoid any confusion as to which item Christine (Lustrousstone) is referring to, when discussing Henry Herbert as the Registrant - as shown in the Kew archives - it is to the 'glass ink stand' Rd. 270525 dated 17.02.1873, and not Peter's very attractive pair of scents.

I say this as when I first read these most recent posts I did wonder if there was a connection being made with Peter's scents   -   attributed by the seller to Middleton Chapman   -   rather than Henry Herbert.
The seller of this pair of scents seems to have been reluctant for whatever reason to include details of the hallmarks, though I suspect that it is from the hallmarks that the date of 1887, and the name of Middleton Chapman, have originated.             It doesn't follow that the glass is of the same date, and it's unlikely as Christine has said that the maker of the silver and glass are one and the same - in fact in the absence of a backstamp and or Rd. No. on the glass, it's unlikely we shall ever know who made the glass, though speculation isn't always without its value.

And this is the limit of my knowledge about these things - I just take the pix  - am sure both Peter and Christine know a lot more. 

[peternam]

Thank you all for being so welcoming.

And my apologies for blundering about your forum with big boots on. I am looking at all the businesses that were affected by the Great Fire of Clerkenwell (8 October 1885). There were at least 30 businesses and I keep coming up with more, ranging from bicycle manufacturers through toy wholesalers to boot makers. I'm trying to get a sense of what each business did, hence my interest in Henry Hebert and Chapman Son & Co (also trading as Middleton Chapman) both of whom took leases on parts of 2 Charterhouse Buildings, a three floor building (with floor area 30ft by 45 ft).

I have many references to Henry Herbert as a publisher of handbooks and "United States and Canadian Commercial Enquiry Office. Subscription £1/1/- for 4 enquiries, £2/2/- for 12 enquiries etc". I have many examples of advertisements from Chapman Son & Co stating they were "Wholesale and Export manufacturers and patentees of Travelling bags, Dressing cases. The Royal Cabinet of Games, Liqueur Cabinets and all kinds of Leather and Fancy cabinet Goods" as well as examples of the kind of glass containers that I posted earlier. Additionally, there are quite a number of advertisements from Chapman Son & Co seeking people with jobs such as "Dressing case makers", "Polishers (good French)", "A lad used to French polishing", "Apprentice to Dressing Case lining" etc

Form this I deduce that Chapman Son & Co made dressing cases (like the attached example). These would appear to be lined wooden boxes containing various items - glass bottles, combs etc. Further, from the evidence above I assume that Chapman Son & Co made the cases themselves and perhaps bought in the other items although the hall-marked silver parts of the glass bottles would suggest that the company also made up some of the contents of the cases

Anyway all I'm trying to do is to sort all that out in light of the record unearthed at The National Archives. That's all! Thanks for all your help

Peter

Mod: Click here for a Google Image search result for a Vanity Box with a Middleton Chapman connection. It is a Pinterest image which may not display for all readers, so the Google Image result is given instead. Peter's copy of one of the actual souce images has been removed because of Board Policy on use of 3rd party images.

[Paul S.]

now that is one very attractive kit.         Unsure of your location Peter, but if you were within an hour or so travelling time from London, you might like to consider joining The National Archives  -  the records kept at Kew are staggering to put it mildly and am sure you'd find their resources of interest.