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Author Topic: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled  (Read 1513 times)

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2017, 10:34:44 AM »
thanks for adding the Fieldings link in a more accessible way - I had in fact already seen it by using the LEGSY information  -  and assume that your reasoning for dating the amber tankard to around 1830 is based solely on the similarity of shape and decoration to the Fieldings blue example.
Of course there's nothing in the link to the book blurb - other than the fact that there was an exhibition in which we are told the blue tankard was shown - to provide evidence of a particular historic date, although as I said earlier I wouldn't have a problem with the blue piece dating to early C19.
We shouldn't be too cynical I know, but I am keen on the sort of provenance/dating that is provided by some guy in an Hogarth engraving holding a known style of drinking glass.
Both tankards are of a shape that had its original outing with the Venetians, and thence to northern Europe to be seen in stems of drinking glasses and then on to an extremely long life in so many areas of design and decoration, with some people even inverting it.          It's a design feature that has the ability to confuse perhaps, and as we know the Victorians copied everything and more for much of the C19.     Liberty used the shape in their 'Tudric' pewter range well into the C20.

I looked in the two catalogues for the Michael Parkington collection, but nothing to match this shape apart from a single very early 'nipt diamond waies' baluster tankard but no more of that shape.         He did have some tankards, but only straight sided examples from c. 1800 or thereabouts, not balusters  -  those pieces of his that were baluster shaped were blue generally and came in the form of jugs, and there were quite a few of them.

As for enamelling for decoration it too has a long history  -  from Beilby to Barbe - mid C18 to very late C19 - and a hell of a lot in between - again much copied, and I'm not rash enough to say where these tankards might have been made or decorated............  but I am keen on accuracy of dating, and maybe there are some broad styles that cannot be pigeon-holed that easily.              To say that so and so has a baluster shape and some enamelled decoration and faded gilding, so must be c. whatever, is unreliable.

You may well be correct about dating the amber tankard, but at the moment we are on thin ice and lack proof. :)

Sorry to be picky, but..............    I think the occasional reference to 'my glass' is a bit confusing when mixed in with these tankards and decanter - since we don't know what shape, colour, or whatever................   so, please spill the beans and put us out of our misery. ;D ;D

P.S.   sorry, meant to add..........    don't now have a copy of Gullliver  -  do you??  is there anything in there to help with this matter?
 


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Offline flying free

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Re: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2017, 11:09:55 AM »
'As for enamelling for decoration it too has a long history  -  from Beilby to Barbe - mid C18 to very late C19 - and a hell of a lot in between - again much copied, and I'm not rash enough to say where these tankards might have been made or decorated............ '

It goes back much much longer than mid C18 - the Fairfax cup as an example
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18865/the-fairfax-cup-beaker-with-box-unknown/


' but I am keen on accuracy of dating, and maybe there are some broad styles that cannot be pigeon-holed that easily. 
   To say that so and so has a baluster shape and some enamelled decoration and faded gilding, so must be c. whatever, is unreliable.'

You are quite right. Though suspect I will not be able to dredge up a Hogarth picture for you.

 It was a diversion for me and that piece is less relevant to my piece than the blue opaque mug listed as Georgian, which has more in common.
I am assuming that Fieldings had actually looked at the book of the Commemoration Exhibition 1962 when writing their piece for the blue opaque mug and dating it and therefore that the information they wrote is in keeping with what was said in the book.

m

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 02:52:13 PM »
I'd hazard a guess that somewhere in one of the Hogarth engravings there's a baluster tankard to two  -  I have some C19 copies of the better known ones such as Beer St & Gin Lane  -  always very chilling to look at the horrors of that picture, especially the mother pouring gin down the baby's throat.          This particular engraving, and others from his Rake's and Harlot's Progress, are valuable sources for dating certain C18 drinking glasses, but since they're black and white then wouldn't know about other coloured pieces.

Sorry, but presently I'm not particularly enamoured of Fieldings - their lack of response to our questions last year re the T/Webb pink vase with gilding - I forget the exact details but you will remember - which we considered almost certainly to be a mis-attribution.               It does seem that too many houses rely on the seller to provide provenance/attribtution/age, which believe is what happened with the pink vase.             
Re the blue tankard, Fieldings may well have simply quoted from the 1962 exhibition catalogue - we don't know, and it's likely indeed that such sources are valuable tools for auctioneers - but we've no idea how the original age or Newcastle connection etc. was arrived at.          Just quoting from a bald exhibit caption may be alright in a gallery cabinet, but think we'd need a bit more than that to understand the whys and wherefores.
I wouldn't consider that a given piece, having been shown in 1962 at an exhibition, was technically what would qualify as 'provenance' for a specified date and origin.
1962 is a long time back and ideas do chop and change in over half a century.

Those folk who have Andy McConnell's immensely useful Decanter book will be aware of the apparent mis-attribution of the so-called 'Newcastle Decanters'.       Probably not devious, but confusing nonetheless, was the apparent dealer generated provenance that certain shaped and decorated bottles originated in Newcastle, although such pieces were subsequently re-attributed 'to La Granja and various Danish works'  -  the confusion arising it appears because these pieces were imported through the port of Newcastle.             Something else I didn't know in connection with that city, concerns particular styles of drinking glasses known commonly as 'light and heavy balusters' the description of which is usually preceded with the word Newcastle, thus implying such pieces were made there.
John Brooks, writing in 1981 said he couldn't find any positive evidence to support this association, and almost all of the books he consulted made no reference to such a connection - he believed it was in fact W. A. Thorpe who started the ball rolling with this assertion, but who omitted to provide any evidence to back this up.

So, it seems that Newcastle has had more than its fair share of misunderstandings - might this be so with the blue tankard, and might this be another instance of word association  -  bit like saying that a piece with a pontil depression must be W/Fs.
So I shall reserve judgment as to the place of origin for these tankards.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, but the world and his wife will take advantage of word association, and it's so much more satisfying to find a genuine piece of provenance that can be supported with historic fact, rather than start guessing.

But hey - you know more about coloured glass than me, so perhaps you're right after all. :)

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Offline flying free

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Re: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 03:01:25 PM »
non ... I know nothing about these so-called 'Newcastle' glass items.

I'm just mighty curious that Newcastle was producing opaque blue glass either in the 18th or the early 19th :)  was it?  who knows? 

Bohemia was as far as I know certainly in the early 19th.  (ref Das Bohmische Glas Band II)


A massive diversion but
Lovely piece of Venetian opaque blue glass enamelled here c. end 1490s :)
http://britishmuseum.tumblr.com/post/121113973422/turquoise-glass-goblet



m


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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2017, 03:05:42 PM »
nah  -  wouldn't give you a fiver  -  'sgot a chip on the rim. ;D

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Offline flying free

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Re: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2017, 03:38:36 PM »
bit more than a chip  ;D more a bite sized piece replaced.

lovely though  - and just hugely interesting if you are into opaline/opaque glass and enamel. The epitomy really.

actually on very close inspection it's completely cracked.  50p?

m

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Offline LEGSY

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Re: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2017, 06:36:08 PM »
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?viewitem&item=302234417018
Just thought this piece might be of interest to the chat on glass tankards, As you know seeing and holding glass is for me anyway best way of telling age, This example on an auction site seems to have been well used that explains the wear to the base and the loss of decoration but I would have thought this piece must be early to mid 19th century that's just guts telling me that no evidence and im no expert. Not a bad price either on above tankard??Mike

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Offline flying free

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Re: Tankard - Georgian or Victorian? English or Bohemian or French? enamelled
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2017, 08:39:47 PM »
thanks for pointing this one out :)
m

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