Topic: 'Ice cut' vase with Harris signature........

[glassobsessed]

Another example to compare with Patrick, very similar g's.

[Vitreo94]

I've noticed that they're all written the same way, the genuine signatures, at least on this post (minus the Goblet for obvious base related reasons), are written in 3 lines one below the other.

Michael Harris
Mdina Glass
Malta

Is this a recurring theme or are there Mdina MH signatures that are genuine and signed differently? Just a passing observation that seems worth pointing out.

[glassobsessed]

No there are several variations, probably depending on the flat space that was available for a signature on a given item. Globe vases tend to have a large flat polished base (where engraving will be much more straightforward), mine are signed towards the centre over three lines. One cut ice lollipop has a wide thin base and is signed in a continuous line along one edge. An early fish vase has a small footprint and is signed on both sides with the two lines facing each other on the outer edges.

Not forgetting Patrick's chalice where the signature runs in an arc around the base - a format determined by the shape of the base again.

[Nemmie]

The second example in the above sequence looks wrong to my eyes.I am quietly confident that if we had a handwriting expert in the forum they would also dispute it.

Of course all this is personal opinion but I can't see how some struggle to accept the obvious differences in style, form and execution.

I wouldn't bid on such an item and I have avoided doing so in the past. There are most definitely a lot of fake signatures out there and more appearing on a monthly basis.

Each to their own I suppose but buyer beware is definitely a good mantra in this area.

[chopin-liszt]

To be honest, I do not believe there is such a thing as a "handwriting expert".
Handwriting varies incredibly, even in an individual.
Most of my signatures these days look like I'm faking them. No two are ever the same.
What needs to be analysed are the tiny variations in the pressures exerted while writing and the time-related fluency of execution, not the shapes of individual letters. That is more akin to phrenology (bumps on the head relate to personality) or physiognomy (if you look evil outside, you are evil inside).
I don't know how any of that could be analysed while engraving.

[Nemmie]

To be honest, I do not believe there is such a thing as a "handwriting expert".
Handwriting varies incredibly, even in an individual.
Most of my signatures these days look like I'm faking them. No two are ever the same.
What needs to be analysed are the tiny variations in the pressures exerted while writing and the time-related fluency of execution, not the shapes of individual letters. That is more akin to phrenology (bumps on the head relate to personality) or physiognomy (if you look evil outside, you are evil inside).
I don't know how any of that could be analysed while engraving.

I think there are, they work for the police and give evidence in court. I have seen it with my own eyes and heard with my own ears.

You are correct in that some aspects but they also look for consistency in lettering, spacing, slant, signs of hesitancy. All of which are evident in an engraved signature.

I think that until recent years all the signatures I had seen showed a great consistency in all these aspects. So either all the rushed signatures appeared recently or someone is faking them.

Logic dictates it is the latter.

 

[chopin-liszt]

Which is why I look at the glass itself, not at scratches on the bottom of it and avoid buying anything signed if I possibly can.
The silly prices the scratches can make, make no sense to me at all.

[Nemmie]

I certainly agree with you on that point.

I have been pleased to pick up some relative bargains just because they weren't signed and there was less of a bidding war.

[glassobsessed]

There are most definitely a lot of fake signatures out there and more appearing on a monthly basis.

Sorry but I think that is utter rubbish and born of paranoia. In the last ten years of collecting I have seen three or four faked Harris signatures and they were obvious, I have seen dozens and dozens that are genuine, that you doubt the signature on the cut ice lollipop amuses me, it just leaves the field open for the rest of us. As it happens and for a couple of reasons that is one of the more difficult examples of his signature to photograph well.

I bought that particular cut ice lollipop vase at a bootsale for five quid more than ten years ago, luckily for me it was my first piece of Mdina. The person I bought it from had had it in their family for many years, it was bought at the factory in the early 1970s and they knew no more about it than that. Which was more than I knew at the time - I was only really interested in Scandinavian glass and had hardly heard of Mdina. As far as I was concerned I was buying a pretty piece of glass, I had no idea of it's potential value.

How do you think MH's signature varied after lunch and a couple of glasses of wine? When tired? When stressed? When the engraving tool was blunt? There will be more reasons equally as banal for the slight variations we see, let alone the vagaries of signing on small and oddly shaped bases and along with that any development over time.

[Nemmie]

You have only seen four?

No offence but that just means you don't know a fake from a genuine signature.

I have it on very good authority they are being faked and I also have a good idea of one of the sources.

I also know which style this particular source is producing.

I hope that explains my "paranoia" to you.