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Author Topic: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849  (Read 4821 times)

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Offline flying free

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #150 on: October 24, 2017, 12:49:16 AM »
Topic - Coloured Bohemian glass vases recorded at Mr Drayton's premises at 310 Regent Street having been silvered.

Recorded in the 'The London Literary Pioneer' Saturday 26th August 1848 on page 311 of link below
Click here to view


My comments:
I do not know if these were double walled or not.  I wasn't sure from reading but I don't think they were (this was 26th August 1848).  From reading the description I think they may have just been silvered on the inside of the vessel i.e. for example where the water would go in a vase, but I can't be sure.
But they are recorded as being Bohemian and in Red, Blue, Green and Yellow. 

I add this to show:

1) that there was a record of Bohemian coloured glass being used (albeit maybe not double walled glass)

2) and because the article does talk about other items being silvered such as hollow tubes.

3) the article talks about Drayton's silvering process being silver nitrate and oil of cloves or cassia.

 I thought by this time he'd have been using grape juice as it had turned out by then that oil of cloves meant the silvering quickly ended up with brown spots on it?  This article does also say that he was given a gold medal for it, by Prince Albert (see next post as that might have been given in 1847?).  But does this mean that his use of grape juice and nitrate came after August 1848 (or 1847 if this article was based on the info re medal perhaps being given in 1847 - see next post?)



Note

- This article was written in August 1848
- According to Thomson ( from Trial 1) he got on board with Drayton in 'about October 1848'
- Thomson talks in trial 1 of 'the first patent in 1848, was for silvering glass and other surfaces' and says he had been working on it for months before he took on Mellish
- According to (trial 1 evidence) Thomson engaged Mellish in Autumn of 1849
- From something else Thomson said in trial 1, it looks as though Mellish started in October 1849:
Thomson said 'I got the second patent for introducing silver between two glasses, in Dec. 1849, two months after Mellish had worked for me'
- Thomson appears to say that the double walled glass items from Powells came into being after he trialled a Lund inkstand and realised double walled would work so the double walled seems to have come about c. Dec 1849.
- That could imply that Drayton's coloured Bohemian glasses (vases.cups etc) were single walled in 1848.

But nevertheless, it shows they had access to coloured Bohemian glass from somewhere. 
Which means the Bohemian glassmakers have to have been at least in the running for making double walled items presumably?
And possibly means the silvered globes may have been Bohemian glass?  (because they might not have needed to be 'double walled', they could have just had the silvering poured inside them and then been sealed couldn't they?)

m

Offline flying free

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #151 on: October 24, 2017, 01:26:29 AM »
On page 203 of this link, this Drayton process is discussed in great depth.

Practical Mechanic and Engineers magazine vol 6:
Click here to view


Topic: - Drayton  was sending glass to Paris to be silvered at the point this article was written (not dated so unsure when this volume was published - a bit of digging shows it comes up as 1847 on search so it might have been then?) and it was being returned dry within 48 HOURS.



On page 233  it notes he was given the gold medal for silvering glass and those were given on '10th June last' (I'm presuming 1848)

Topic:  it also talks about silvering the INSIDE of capillary tubes.

And it says that within the 'last 4 mths' between 500 and 1000 large glasses (presume this means mirrors) had been silvered in Paris,of which a shipment of 25 went to China. 
I add this, because it does seem that it wasn't that slow to get glass silvered and back from Paris.

So, this may be why they went to Paris to patent the silvered glass vases?

Whilst the double walled process was difficult to blow, Paris also seems to have been within the grasp of getting items made and back quite quickly.  So Paris must also be in the running/potential as a maker of their double-walled glass perhaps?


Neither this post nor my post previous proves they were using French or Bohemian double walled glass items, but surely must indicate that both those countries were possibles for making the glass, not just Powell's?
Having said that, at the trials the only places they (Varnish and Thomson) talk about visiting, were Brussels (not sure whether Varnish and Mellish went here together or just Varnish) and Paris (where Varnish and Mellish went together), and VArnish only mentioned Paris as where they bought glass and where they lodged a Patent.

Offline flying free

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #152 on: October 24, 2017, 01:49:26 AM »
oh ...  The Art Journal 1851 see  page 76,

Topic:   describing the process of how Powell's made the double-walled glasses, and how they looked gilt inside and how they were engraved. 

Errm ... any comments on this ?  (they seem to say they were made in two pieces after being engraved (on the interior??) and actually talk about the 'touch' being so perfect that the outer wall appears perfectly smooth - eek  (see photograph of a snippet of the article for their description) and they also seem to imply that Mr Hale Thomson (their usage) used grape juice instead of oil of cloves or cassia and make the distinction that this was what Mr Drayton used.
They keep referring to the fact they covered in great detail Mr Drayton's silvered glass process in their 1848 volume.

They also talk about being particularly impressed by the gold ruby glass used - that will be why the Queen and Prince Albert had a red goblet (gold ruby) and presumably the Lords Mayor of York and London had green ones (cheaper than gold ruby) maybe?

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Offline KevinH

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #153 on: October 24, 2017, 02:52:11 AM »
Notes on DRAYTON:

1. Presentation of a gold medal by HRH Prince Albert (president of the Society of Arts) to Thomas Drayton for his "new process of silvering glass" was reported in the June 1847 edition of The Agricultural Magazine and Farmers' Journal (page 267 Google numbering)

2. "Drayton's New Mode of Silvering" was reported in Notes and Notices of The Mechanics Magazine, Museum, Register, Journal, and Gazette
Edition No. 1089, Saturday, June 22, 1844 (Google page number 432)

So it seems that Drayton had been developing his silvering process since at least 1844 and was successful enough by 1847 to be awarded a gold medal at the Society of Arts.
KevinH

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #154 on: October 24, 2017, 10:48:19 AM »
On page 76 of the Art Journal Report dated March 1851, they make the distinction that Mr Hale Thomson's silvering process used sugar and in that respect differed from Mr Drayton's process of using essential oils.
They say they are very careful of describing the process used. (see photo of relevant paragraph )

but best to read the preceding paragraphs as this explains Drayton v Hale Thomson process.
Click here to view


So it might be possible that Patent 2 (Dec 19 1849 - Thomson F. H.  and Varnish E. of Kensington) as described in reply #116 on this thread linked below, referred not only to double walled glass being used but also to using grape juice by Hale Thomson, rather than essential oils as used by Drayton in his silvering process?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg367682.html#msg367682

Note:
This article in the Art Journal was written in March 1851. 
Remember the York Banquet was held 5 months previous to this in  October 1850 at which point three goblets had been presented to Prince Albert and the the two Lords Mayor (York and London) on behalf of the Patent Silvered-Glass Company.
source: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg367784.html#msg367784

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #155 on: October 24, 2017, 11:25:34 AM »
Topic:  gilt interior on silvered double-walled glass items

I've queried this before.

1) Diane Lytwyn says in this article:
http://www.go-star.com/antiquing/mercury_glass.htm
 that the gilt interiors are found on English silvered glass items and Bohemian silvered glass items, not on American made items.
The article says the 'the vast majority of these'  were 'gold-washed':

'[b]In addition, the gold wash effect on the interiors of the vast majority of compotes, beakers, goblets, pitchers, salts and vases were achieved with the use of chemical stains.[/b] The contrast of the gold to silver resulted in a piece of extraordinary brilliance. It is found on silvered glass made in Bohemia and on some English pieces, but silvered glass made in the United States, however, was never gold washed.'

Note, DL does qualify this by saying 'the vast majority'.





2) The Art Journal seemed to imply that the gilt interior on the Hale Thomson pieces was achieved by using 'brilliant yellow glass' for the interior surface (see page 76 middle column):

'...
As the inner part of a goblet is made of brilliant yellow glass, the tint varying as iron, or silver, or charcoal is employed, this, when silvered, looks as if it were gilded, and we have the effect of a silver cup gilt within.'


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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #156 on: October 24, 2017, 11:33:05 AM »
Just giving this query a topic of it's own as noted in my reply #152

Topic:  describing the process of how Powell's made the double-walled glasses


Errm ... any comments on this ?  (they seem to say they were made in two pieces after being engraved (on the interior??) and actually talk about the 'touch' being so perfect that the outer wall appears perfectly smooth - eek

Click here to view

Edited 23 Nov 2017 to add ...
see Reply #206 for a likely answer to the question

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #157 on: October 24, 2017, 12:20:11 PM »
Topic:  Drayton's patent in the UK for silvering glass

From Kev's query in reply #120  about ascertaining if Thomas Drayton took out a patent in the UK as well as the one taken out in 1844 in the United States:

'So, from the info above about Drayton / Thomson, we need to
- carefully look into that relationship
- see if there is any reason why Drayton, before he contacted Thomson, did not take out (or be granted) a patent for his process in England as well in the USA'



Answer:

According to page 136 of this book, Justus Von Liebig (William H. Brock, 1997 Cambridge University Press) ...

Click here to view


... Drayton took out a patent for silvering glass in 1843:

'In 1843 an English operative chemist Thomas Drayton patented a process for silvering glass. Silver was precipitated by adding an alcoholic solution of oil of cassia to ammonia and silver nitrate.(note 59).  Although the patent (BP 9968, 25 November 1843)  drew attention to it's possible use for mirrors, it's sole commercial use until the late 1850s was in the artistic ornament of goblets and other glass vessels with silver braids.'


So in this topic of patents,  Drayton had a patent taken out in 1843 (see above)
And  then again in 1848 :
Source - http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg367681.html#msg367681


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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2017, 02:55:40 PM »
See page 125 for a description of the patent process Drayton used for Patent in 1843:

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Offline KevinH

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2017, 05:52:03 PM »
Re: Reply #156 ...

I think the author of that 1851 Art Journal article was mistaken about the process of making the items. His description sounds more like he had seen the "Hawkes double-walled vase" (that we can't see online) and concluded it must have made in two parts and joined; then he decided that double-walled silvered items must have been made similarly.

As for "to the touch they are smooth on the outside" I cannot think which type of item he was considering. It sounds like a description of an undecorated (or plain outer with "gold wash" interior) item!
KevinH

 

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