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Author Topic: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849  (Read 2330 times)

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #180 on: October 29, 2017, 04:39:06 PM »
Update to reply 63 (flying free) and reply 67 (KevH)
The chandelier I mentioned as noted as 'silvered glass' has been confirmed in this linked volume as being silvered by Varnish and Co.'s patent.


At the Great Exhibition under Class 24 Glass, Exhibitor no 32 according to this catalogue (see page 701),

GREEN, Joseph George, of 19 St James Street, Piccadilly - (Designer and Manufacturer),
exhibited:

  'Suspending or-molu chandelier, in Elizabethan style, fitted with glass, silvered by Varnish and Co.'s patent'


Click here to view
See page 701


In May Mellish 1851, Mellish went, presumably along with his wife who looked after Thomson's shop on Regent Street.

So perhaps Varnish had to find another method of retailing their wares? or perhaps Varnish sold their items to  Mr Green who I think I have read somewhere, is believed to have shown glass from Richardson maybe as well?




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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #181 on: October 29, 2017, 05:57:54 PM »
See also page 523 item no 94.

'Bywater, Witham M.  99 Piccadilly - Designer and Manufacturer

Single horse brougham harness, with patent silvered glass front, and rosettes. Improved Russian cavalry and other bridles.'

Click here to view


I'm beginning to suspect they were making many more silvered items than goblets, salts, vases.

So perhaps these items were being made at Powell's Whitefriars in great numbers.  But the smaller numbers mentioned as being bought from France in the court case, related to the more difficult pieces to produce?

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #182 on: October 29, 2017, 07:42:41 PM »
Topic:  Where was the glass blown?

I seem to have reached a dead end for now in finding out further information re Powell & sons and their relationship with Thomson.

Note:-

1) Wiki says regarding the Powell & Sons archival information:

'Archives[edit]

The firm's archives are split between several museums:
 the business records are held by the Museum of London,
 their designs are in the Archive of Art & Design at the Victoria and Albert Museum,
 and their cartoons (or, preparatory drawings) are at the Rakow Research Library of the Corning Museum of Glass.[6]'


Whitefriars closed it's doors in 1980.

The V & A hold a number of items in their collection with Varnish & Co. plugs and Thomson plugs.

According to Wiki the V&A hold the Powell and Sons archive of designs.



2) In British Glass 1800-1914, Charles Hajdamach published 1991, page 271 it says re these silvered glass items from Thomson:

'Some authorities give James Powell and Sons as the probable makers but there is no conclusive proof.'



I wonder if the conclusive proof is in the V&A archives or in the business records held in the British Museum archives?

Seems a bit strange for the V&A to write 'probably Powell & Sons' next to maker of these items, when they are sitting on the archives of said maker.

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #183 on: October 29, 2017, 08:03:17 PM »
Topic:  Patent Dec 1849 description    and     evidence they used single wall glass and double-walled glass

- longer description of process used for this patent
- says they used double-walled glass where necessary and single wall otherwise


Source: Mechanics Magazine, Museum,Register , Journal and Gazette, January 5th - June 29th 1850
Page 518
Click here to view


See photograph of evidence

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #184 on: October 29, 2017, 09:32:51 PM »
Topic:  Thomson Mellish Patent no 3  in my list - Patent dated 22 Aug 1850 (which Thomson said in the court case was never put into production (as they didn't make the machine to do it iirc?))

- Very long detailed  description of the patent

- seems to be for cutting patterns on glass and silvering them

- Very interesting idea (thinking Thomas W. Kidd silvered glass plate here)
[edited for correction of name - see Reply 231]

Source: Mechanics Magazine, Museum,Register , Journal and Gazette, January 4th - June 28th 1851
Page 179
Click here to view


See photograph of evidence

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #185 on: October 29, 2017, 09:56:44 PM »
Topic:  how long were patents granted for?

Have I read correctly that patents were granted for 14 years here in England?

If so, then would that mean that  Patent 2 (i.e. Varnish and Thomson double-walled glass idea) which was patented in 1849, would have been applicable until 1863?  and possibly another 7 years prolongation in exceptional cases?

This would mean that using double-walled glass to silver would not have been possible even if a competitor had got the silvering process right, until 1863 in England.

I don't know how long patents were granted for in France, but Varnish said he went to France to register a patent.


Notes:-
I have seen a paleish green silvered goblet for sale through Woolley and Wallis that has a 'P' in the plug.
They said this was for Petitjean but I don't know if this is true.
This would be the Petitjean who worked out a way of creating the right solution for silvering using Tartaric acid (think that's what it was) 
I have no idea if they are correct. 
Just musing on the fact that there is a goblet out there which is silvered and has a P marked on the plug and is using double-walled glass. 

And Petitjean was French.

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #186 on: October 29, 2017, 10:28:20 PM »
Topic:  Mr Thomas Robert Mellish - yet another patent

This information comes from a document seemingly published 1854 and entitled
Subject-matter Index of patents of invention from March 2nd 1617 to October 1 1852

On the 7th May 1851 (number 13624) it seems Mr Thomas Robert Mellish patented:

' Instruments and Apparatus for the admission of light into carriages and buildings:  also the exclusion of light from the same.'

Also appearing in that document on a separate page:
On the same date 7th May 1851 (number 13624)

'Decoration of articles of furniture'

and again on another page the same date and number

'Manufacture of Reflectors'

and yet another:

Apparatus for the admission of light and air into carriages and buildings; also for the exclusion of light and air from the same
Click here to view



I need to just double check against the 3 patents already listed on this thread, but I thought it a bit strange this patent falls right at the date that Mellish apparently decided to leave Thomson's employ?

(source: see this link https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg367602.html#msg367602 )
and this link gives a more specific set of dates for Mellish leaving ... i.e. BEFORE 7th May 1851

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg367619.html#msg367619



Kev's tv drama comment has me thinking all sorts of conspiracy theories now about exactly what Mellish was doing down at Powell's in the evening 'overseeing' the glass being made apparently for Mr Thomson.


How come Mellish left on the 3rd, 4th or 5th of May and suddenly on 7th May 1851 appears to have registered a long patent? And it appears from the court cases that Mellish allegedly threw his book of patterns in the fire? seemingly at the time he manufactured a row with Mr Thomson.



None of this adds up correctly to me.  But perhaps I'm just misunderstanding it all.

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #187 on: October 29, 2017, 11:49:49 PM »
Topic:  Thomson and Varnish patent 19th December 1849  - FULLY described and some items being made in TWO separate parts with the rim being fixed together


some of the items WERE designed to be made of two parts and  have the interior and exterior parts separate, 'the rim being fixed together with a metal edge, or by other convenient means'

full description :  SEE from Page 143
Click here to view


This MIGHT tie in with the curious vase in the V&A which has a silver rim around the rim  and the edge of the foot.

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6482/vase-hale-thomson-f/


The outstanding question is:  Where was this double-walled glass made?

Varnish patented 'double-hollow' glass in France as well:
see link to post  on this thread for the evidence of that:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg367642.html#msg367642

m

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #188 on: October 30, 2017, 12:07:42 AM »
Topic:  Where was the glass blown?

My post directly before this one i.e. reply #187
shows a full description of the patent of Dec 1849 which describes using two layers of separate glass to form one piece and then fixing the rim with whatever material was appropriate.

This making description seems to perhaps tie in with a marked vase in the V&A:
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6482/vase-hale-thomson-f/

That vase is a very curious piece of glass to have been made  in England to be honest.  The cutting on that vase is quite Bohemian in style,but to be fair is also similar to a couple of pieces in the Clichy book - the tall top to bottom pattern design type cutting of the moorish windows.

However, it also has a gilded vermicular pattern all over it.
According to Charles Hajdamach in British Glass 1800-1914, page 113:
'The vermicular, or vermicelli pattern as it is sometimes called, was registered on 24 August 1854, number 96703, on a trefoil lip jug (Plate 85).  The double twist loop handle on this jug was another Richardson innovation.'

Now, I have no idea what that vermicular patent was for.  The jug appears to have it etched on to it.  That is different to gilding, so was the patent for  etching the pattern?  not for the actual pattern per se?

Edited 21 Nov 2017 to add ...
Gulliver, Victorian Decorative Glass, page 261, shows two Registered Design entries by Benjamin Richardson, for the "Vermicular pattern", the first shown on a jug, the second shown on a vase.
96703, August 24, 1854, "Pattern upon all kinds of table glass."
98170, November 16, 1854, "Pattern for all kinds of glass globes, or shades or pedestals etc."
No comment is given on how the vermicular pattern was applied.

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #189 on: October 30, 2017, 01:26:43 AM »
Topic:  Where was the glass blown?

1) Something must have been made in Paris.  Varnish speaks here about Mellish being in Paris.  Varnish is at pains to say that Mellish was responsible for the purchasing of glass items, that he, Varnish, was the commercial man and that he and Mr Thomson knew nothing about glass.  So as I say, something must have been made in Paris else why would Mellish have been there with Varnish?  He wouldn't have been selling the glass as that was part of Mr Varnish's 'commercial' bit about bringing in the money.  So he must have been needed to negotiate the buying.

From the Court case 12 may 1852

Edward Varnish being examined and talking about Mellish:

'...it was not my department to attend to the taking of the stock, but I examined the accounts from week to week of money paid, and when the stock was taken I examined it twice, and it strictly agreed—I have no reason now to doubt that it was fairly conducted—I have no doubt that he conducted himself honestly and fairly in our employment in the transactions at Paris and elsewhere—he was constantly employed for us, from the morning till late at night frequently—in the evening he would go down to Messrs. Powell's glass works, and be there perhaps half the night,
getting things made under his own inspection—they were things which he had designed, made
drawings of, and carried out—that was perhaps three or four times a week—he was also obliged to
examine every article which had been made under his direction by the outdoor workmen, and see that it was properly made and determine the price to be properly charged for it—he was constantly
occupied in the business—his employment was quite general—he had the sole management—Mr.
Thomson and myself had no control; we left it entirely to him—I had no knowledge of the trade
myself, nor had Mr. Thomson—I simply brought in capital, and was not bound to he there at all, but I
used to attend to the counting house department—Mellish saw the persons with whom we had to deal with respect to articles wanted to purchase—he was the only person that could answer—
his time was quite occupied, I think a great deal more than the eight hours which he had engaged to devote to it—he had to superintend between thirty and forty workmen on the premises—he also, to our knowledge, carried on his business in Great Port-land-street during the time he was so employed by us—we objected to it, and wished him to get rid of it as soon as he could'



2) I also noted elsewhere that Thomson and Varnish both mention Mellish being in York, Thomson says it was something to do with some glass he sent and mentions a banquet iirc. The York visit is thus probably explained by the fact that Mellish was taking up the goblets to be displayed by Soyer at the York Banquet.

But in addition to this Varnish also says they went to Stourbridge.


3) To balance this, it is also noted that Varnish and Thomson both mention Mellish having to go to Powell's in the evening to supervise their requirements there. I should also bring in here the patent description I've listed in the post two previous to this.  There are many items described in that patent list that they say the process would be suitable for, some straight single wall, others double-wall where necessary.

m

 

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