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Author Topic: kuttrolf history and variations  (Read 1654 times)

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Offline parfaitelumiere

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kuttrolf history and variations
« on: October 18, 2017, 09:22:38 AM »
Hello,

I want to create this thread not exactly to request a specific item identification, bu tmore to get as many informatiosn as possible about the kuttrolf shaped bottles and decanters.
-it's origins, with if possible original roman examples, with age, and location, maybe kiln areas
-its evolution, with the modern shape, that would be at least from XVII, from pictures I saw here and there
but I would know more about how the design survived and spread throug europe, how to recognise a danish, german, or norvegian kuttrolf, what were fashion variations throught the time, when did the glass stopper appear and if there were genuine british made kuttrolf, or if they bought from denmark or norway and mounted silver tops on them only.

From now, I actually own 3 kuttrolf decanters

-one british, 1895, clear glass, with cuts, chester hallmark sterling silver mount, wrong stopper.
The glass has very clean shape and finish, single piece blown, quite light, the bottom has polished pontil, star cut and flat polished bottom, and 8 flat polished cut on top.
It's easy to see the top has been grinded to fit the silver mount, so I think the glass part has been made somewhere else, then modified to fit silver.
What I don't know is glas origin (british, danish, german  or norvegian) and if the cuts were original, or later modification made in UK.

-one probable norvegian, much probably early XIX, grinded top for stopper.
the glass has crystals and bubbles, and a greyish-purplish hue, rough pontil, a kind of depression on top, probably two parts piece, really common on early design.

-one probable early XIX, norvegian glass and scottish late XIX silver mount, wrong stopper
the glass is quite similar to the other one, the seller mentionned a yellow-green fluorescence.
Rough pontil.
there are hot applied elements, as I didn't get it yet I can't confirm some details, but I think the top has no grinding for stopper, and probably cut to fit the silver mount.

Pictures are bottles 1, 2 and 3

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 06:55:00 PM »
Hi - wish you luck in your endeavours in collecting these things, although not so sure that members of the GMB will have C4 Roman examples :)
Must be the most long lived general shape of bottle for decanting booze, and no doubt still made - originating in just about every country that made glass  -  I always think of them as being mostly from Scandinavia from mid C19 to mid C20, but I'm really only guessing.
I'd hazard a guess that earlier examples don't come cheaply, but at least you'd never run short of something to collect.

In English they are referred to sometimes as 'glug-glug' bottles, no doubt from the sound produced by the exiting liquid  -  in Danish they might be Klukflaske.
If you search the Board's archives using such names am sure you will find lots of examples posting by members over a period of some years.

There may be books specifically for such bottles, but the only one I'm aware of - and it's expensive, unfortunately, is Andy McConnell's 'The Decanter - An Illustrated History of Glass from 1650'  -  although he does include illustrations and information on earlier pieces.     As you can imagine, the text is in English.
Do search the archives here though, you will find some interesting posts.  :)

P.S.   Are you able to tell us why this particular multiple throated bottle was invented in the first place  -  perhaps just an accident of design, that gained appeal?  I don't know the answer.

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Offline parfaitelumiere

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 07:39:55 PM »
for now, I saw the first examples as mediteranean, 3d AD (one referd as 3 BC but probably a mistake)
Shame, I saw one like this, sold on christies auction for about 1500€, not so much.
After that, VI-VII AD some european versions, somehow similar but more open top, I am waiting for some translated from german, I will share here.
After that, nothing from VII to XVII
After that, a late XVII norvegian example, and many XVIII- early XIX similar to what we can find on all german-danish-norvegian area, 2 part blown glass, top is a separate piece, some with hot glass add-on, some dutch with engravings too.
Also found a early XIX american version, unique, and quite original model.
After that, late XIX, english silver collared versions (one piece blown english made glass?), danish holmegaard, german colored glass
After that, XX, dutch enameled, and holmegaard modern stuff.

About the original design, I also was thinking about accident, many roman glass have square design with hot pinched round shape, and maybe someone piched a bit too much, and made the first kuttrolf.

Yes glug glug is the first name I discovered, wanting to buy a victorian decanter, and discovering the specific shape.

I have many pictures but am waiting to understand better, and make some better pictures removing backgrounds and makin classification.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 09:14:11 PM »
thanks for your reply  -  perhaps we'll never know the real reason for the distinctive design, but you may well be correct about an accident.

quote  ...................  "nothing from VII to XVII"  -  it's all the fault of the Dark Ages with Saxons/Vikings and medieval philistines - barbarians. ;)

Look forward to seeing some more of your kuttrolf bottles.

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Offline parfaitelumiere

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 08:43:39 AM »
I received my old decanters, the silver mounted one is definitely a norvegian gjovic, late XVIII to early XIX.
The original bottle had a cork stopper, it has been cut and grinded to fit a silver piece in UK at the end of the XIX, but the inside has been kept rough.
I will find a silver mounted cork stopper to match it.
After some searches about shapes and design, and closer inspection, my simple one is more probably dutch, shape is really close to XVIII-XIX dutch ones with quite conical top, long neck, and just bent top.

Here are some ungentarium pictures I found on google
First is from syria 1st-2nd AD, second is mediteranean 2nd AD , third is not specified, except "roman 3rd AD"
Notify the 4 lobes on bodies.
fourth picture is a early guttrolf, 3rd-4th AD, single piece blown body.
It must be possible to imagine the size and shape of the balloon before pinching, not very large, except handles, the shape is very similar, can we think the first design was the lobed body, and some day there was a accident and it stuck?!

[Mod: images via google removed in line with Board Policy on use of copyrighted material.]

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Offline flying free

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2017, 10:46:24 AM »
Hi, just a question - how do you know this?


'I received my old decanters, the silver mounted one is definitely a norvegian gjovic, late XVIII to early XIX.'



I have a very old Norwegian Klukflaske :)

If you search on this board, I have put on some very detailed  links in the past as I own a few of these and have put my research on the board.  Others have also added brilliant research links to primary research patterns.

m

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Offline parfaitelumiere

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2017, 11:03:03 AM »
please add your researches here, and if you know some other enthusiasts, i would be happy if they could add their own researches.
I found some threads on what looks like a norvegian forum, and some links, and after that I found pictures of some kuttrolf from gjovic area, here are some of them, all are for cork stoppers, and described as coming fro Gjovic, and ranking from late XVIII (second picture) to early XIX.
I thin it can be a way to refine searche, making comparative pictures with other design botles from same area, and see the foot and applied glass to get a better period idea.
my scottish silver mounted decanter is exactly the same type.
I think there is a later(?) or different variation (other company, other locality?!), with round base instead ol lobed one, it seems the pontil is cut on thes round base versions, and also, can be for cork stopper or glass stopper (emeri sanded on inside of collar), I saw 2 different, have to get the pictures.

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Offline flying free

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 11:16:51 AM »
I'm sorry but I don't think those are your pictures are they?
They will need to be deleted for copyright reasons if they are not your pictures.
You can just provide a link to the pictures using copy and paste to add your link.

If you search on this board using klukflaske and kuttrolf etc, in the search box, you will find the links and can then search some resources to help you :)

m

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Offline parfaitelumiere

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2017, 11:22:25 AM »
I deleted what I could delete, as I made searches long time ago I am not able to find the links.
When I type both keywords here the only link I find is this thread.

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Offline KevinH

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Re: kuttrolf history and variations
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 11:05:42 PM »
Hi parfaitelumiere, I have removed the images from your Reply #7 because of Board Policy on copyright material.

Please look through google images again and select some new images to illustrate your comments. When you have found them, please post a new reply and add the URL links. A moderator can then add those links to the Reply #7.
KevinH

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