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Author Topic: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded  (Read 1091 times)

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2017, 08:02:40 PM »
well, that doesn't surprise us I suppose  -  plagiarism of names and techniques, again  -  no wonder we all get confused.

My apologies m  -  the joke was for Anne, who some year or so back posted a picture of a stained glass window in her property, and which I suggested might look better in my home  -  as you can imagine, Anne didn't agree :)

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Offline Anne Tique

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2017, 08:07:46 PM »
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I think it's possible the word 'opalin' has been re-spelled to morph into the word opaline.

Opalin refers to the colour, can be just glass in several soft and soapy/milky colours ... opaline is a speciality, the fabrication of opalin crystal, a french speciality from the 19th and 20th century.... but of course were  going to say it's their invention  ::)

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as you can imagine, Anne didn't agree

Sorry Paul, winter's coming, ask me again in spring  :D

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Offline flying free

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2017, 10:19:59 PM »
I strongly recommend reading this:
 

Edith Mannoni, Opalines, Paris 1974.

Having read an extract it gives an excellent explanation and history of French Opaline glass.


Paul,
Yes it does seem as though the term 'opaline' has been appropriated in more recent times (turn of the 1900s? from this book extract) but in my opinion for what it's worth, it is an appropriate description.


Anne,

I didnt understand that sorry.  Does that mean that only translucent glass made in France from crystal can be described as opaline glass?


I think from reading the extract, that it becomes clear the development of opaline glass has progressed in stages/ages. 
It cannot be fixed into 'only glass made with bone ash of certain decades and made in France by Baccarat'.  That would not be true.

I don't even think it would be true to say it has to be hand blown and cannot be pressed. Opaline is not a description of a process imho, but is a description of a final glass item appearance, an item which is not transparent, not opaque and is translucent and  has been coloured/made in the batch.

The different types of opaline could be categorised though if really required, probably by age and country of make descriptors.  It just that, categorising them does not make them not opaline. 

I think you just have to know your market and what you are buying.
m

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2017, 07:41:54 AM »
well done m - some good work you've done there, and the more I hear from Ms. Tique and yourself in very recent posts, it does look as though the descriptive terminology now appearing - which some of us would suggest is what we understand as accurately describing mid C19 French opalin  ......... the milk and water translucent pastel shaded material ...........    is pointing us back to what we might have suggested all along.
This won't deter others from using the word opaline to cover a much wider range of appearances, some of which will be quite dissimilar, but everyone to their own, as they say.

Perhaps the purists amongst us should drop the 'e' when referring to the real stuff ;D ;)

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Offline flying free

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2017, 09:58:35 AM »
Paul
but to exactly what glass are you referring when you say 'the real stuff'?

What age, what maker, what colour, what intensity of colour, what process, what country ?

Where is your evidence of the use of the word opalin to describe a particular glass and at what year does it start and what year does it stop?


Language is a beautiful thing.  I don't think one word can be used to sum up all criteria when it comes to glass description.  It's the further clarification of the piece that's important.  Being ugly doesn't stop it being opaline glass.

Mannoni is a good read.


p.s. I find a similar descriptive  problem when coming across white opaque glass as well btw.

Some of it is hideous to my eye (pressed white glass.)
However, look at a piece of Italian Lattimo glass from earlier centuries, or my white Etruscan plate (maybe c.1820-30) and it's gorgeous handblown, fabulous glass.

But these are all white opaque glass.  It's the further description that is the key.





m


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Offline flying free

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2017, 10:33:11 AM »
I would also suggest a read of Farbenglas 1, Walthraud Neuwirth  - page 273.  In fact the whole book is amazing.

That is an excellent read of the issues we are now discussing.


m

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Offline Anne Tique

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2017, 11:36:11 AM »
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Does that mean that only translucent glass made in France from crystal can be described as opaline glass?

I can't answer that, I don't think that the french have got the exclusivity to that name. I only know that the better quality stuff from Baccarat, St Louis, Choisy-le-Roi etc are called opaline, the other, pressed pieces like Portieux, Vallerysthal etc are called 'Opaline de Foire'.

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Offline flying free

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2017, 11:38:59 AM »
thank you Anne :)

m

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Offline flying free

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2017, 11:55:46 AM »
http://geology.com/gemstones/opal/fire-opal.shtml

Might explain why it's difficult to categorise using one word?
Not all opals have the '"play-of-color" (the typical flashes of spectral colors that can be seen when a precious opal is turned under a source of light)'

'What is Fire Opal?
"Fire Opal" is a term used for colorful, transparent to translucent opal with a background color that is a fire-like hue of yellow to orange to red. It might or might not exhibit "play-of-color" (the typical flashes of spectral colors that can be seen when a precious opal is turned under a source of light). Most fire opal does not have play-of-color. The defining characteristic of fire opal is the fiery hue of yellow, orange or red that serves as a uniform background color throughout the stone. These colors are thought to be caused by the presence of small amounts of iron in the opal
.'

Perhaps the description 'translucent glass mixed in the batch' is a better description - but sooo wordy.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: BACCARAT- Blue French Opaline Glass Vase - Molded
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2017, 01:55:03 PM »
I've seen some pix of Baccarat C19 opalin  -  pastel shaded pieces with very much the water and milk appearance, and they were translucent and almost certainly had the sunset glow  ..................   so it is to that type of opalin that I'm referring when I speak of the 'real stuff'.        I get a feeling that opalin of this appearance is how I equate some of the book descriptions, so am happy with that.               However, I appreciate that others have widened the net regarding descriptions to include glass with properties other than these, and so leave them to their own interpretations. :)

coming back to anotonizz - did we ever get an answer as to whether his vase was opaque or translucent?  if not that may be because the vase in question has yet to be seen.

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