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Author Topic: Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer? ID = Kosta  (Read 779 times)

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Offline Nick A

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Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer? ID = Kosta
« on: January 08, 2018, 09:22:11 PM »
Looking for more information or a more positive ID and age on these glasses. I have some experience with antiques and these "feel" old to me. The quality, the wear and style/quality of the engraving all feel right for c.1800. The bases and stems are heavy and the "bowls" are very thin (~2 cm). They have polished pontils. They ring beautifully. It also appears that these have been repaired/maintained over the years with some chips being polished out, another sign that they have some age to them.

Height 15.5 cm (6-1/8 inches)
Diameter 8.5 cm (3-1/4 inches)
Width of Base 6.5 cm (2.5" inches)
Weight 12.4 oz

Link to high resolution photo album https://imgur.com/a/bY1uQ


Offline Paul S.

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Re: Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 09:56:50 PM »
hi - welcome to the GMB Nick :)       You could well be correct with your suggested date for this piece - like most things dating isn't quite the exact science we might wish for.
My thoughts for what they're worth ..................    your elongated (ovoid) bowl is more typical of late C18 shapes than C19, and IMHO I'd suggest this one has a Continental origin, not British.          This is based mainly on the octagonal collar under the bowl, the gilding and the overall shape of the stem and foot.           The slightly tall ovoid bowl was the first of the bowl shapes for rummers - it was longer and less squat than virtually all of the rummer bowls that came afterwards  -  possibly it was taken from the bowl design of the goblet - although in general goblets didn't have these chunky square moulded feet.        So my suggestion is a rummer rather than goblet, but if this is Continental then maybe they might have termed it a goblet.
We all get accustomed to looking at glass from our own country, we forget that not all countries had the exact same styles during the same time frame - similar but different.
British rummers don't occur befor c. 1780 - and within a very few years the bowl shape settles down to what we mostly recognize as the typical shorter ovoid bowl  -  and as you say, the glass becomes thicker and more coarse as time goes by, so thinness (in rummers at least) generally tends to indicate an earler piece.           Gilding on British rummers is very uncommon, and the gilded rim on yours is possibly more typical of Bohemian/German pieces - but that's really only my opinion.              How is the rim finished  -  fire polished or cut/bevelled and polished?
Can't imagine in a million years you will locate a makers name, or even the exact country of origin - but who knows, perhaps someone here will come up trumps  -  fingers crossed :)

Ref.  'Rummers - A Social History Told In Glass'  -  Timothy Mills  -  2013 .........  very good book and well worth the money, although concerns itself with British material only.


Offline Paul S.

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Re: Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 09:10:24 AM »
have just looked at some goblet/rummer designs from Kosta (Sweden), and there's certainly some similarity in the way of bowl shape, gilding and foot ........  so wouldn't rule out that part of the world.

P.S.    Contrary to my usual pessimistic comments, I think we have an exact match in Kosta Boda.        Page 74 of a small, British produced handbook, 'Millers Glass Antiques Checklist' by Mark West (much respected British glass authority) - shows what appears to be an identical piece.
The caption reads  ....  'Goblet by Kosta Boda, Sweden   c.1880; ht. 8in. (20cm); value code G'.

Unfortunately, beleive we're not allowed here to reproduce images from books, but if I have that wrong perhaps someone will let me know.
Whether this particular shape/design is copying an earlier Scandi item, or if the c. 1880 date was the first date this pattern appeared in Sweden I'm not sure  -  certainly the bowl shape and foot are signs of an earlier date than that mentioned.       Possibly just someone copying an earlier European fashion, since these aspects had appeared the previous century.

Would be very helpful if someone is able to corroborate my comments.   thanks.

Offline brucebanner

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Chris Parry

Offline Paul S.

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Re: Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 10:22:03 AM »
nope - I don't know either :)             I was hoping that someone here might have Mark West's booklet, and be able to confirm my comments re the piece showing on page 74.
In fact I woke up in the night realizing that I'd seen the op's glass somewhere, and then remembered I'd seen it on a Kosta advert page showing at the back of Pina & Vigier's 'Smoke & Ice' - which presumably was being offered as a 'repro' item.         Then found the real thing in the Miller's booklet.

Offline Nick A

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Re: Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 02:33:47 PM »
Nailed it! Kosta Boda Odelberg Junior - this pattern comes in a wide variety of shapes.

https://www.dorotheum.com/en/auctions/current-auctions/kataloge/list-lots-detail/auktion/11132-works-of-art-furniture-sculptures-glass-porcelain/lotID/810/lot/1859150-kosta-drinking-service-odelberg-junior.html

A Google search of Kosta Boda Odelberg Junior turns up many results, identical to my glasses.

Apparently produced from 1900 up into the 1950s and maybe later. So not nearly as old as I had hoped or thought, but indeed made in an old style.

Thank you for your help!

Offline kerstinfroberg

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Re: Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer? ID = Kosta
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 06:40:16 PM »
There are many catalogues missing from "my" collection (http://bergdala-glastekniska-museum.se/nedladdningar.html ), also there are pages missing from the 1896 catalogue. Also, of course, not everything was in the catalogues.
So, FWIW:

In the 1896 cat I have, Odelberg is not present. (but it is missing pages)

It is present in the cats from 1926 ->

Junior (no "Odelberg Junior" in any catalogue) is not present until the 1940 cat. In the cat from 1933 it is not listed.

And, some nit picking (shard picking?): Kosta is one of the two oldest glassworks in Sweden. (K and Limmared still quarrel about who was first).
Boda is a different glassworks, started in 1864. At the moment I can't remember when the liasion occurred, but Kosta Boda is a trademark, not a glassworks.

Edit: Kosta and Limmared are he two oldest glasworkt still working - there were several in operation before them.

Kerstin in Sweden

Offline Paul S.

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Re: Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer? ID = Kosta
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 07:53:08 PM »
thanks for the additional interesting information Kerstin.           So, despite the fact that unfortunately you're missing some pages from the 1896 catalogue, there are sources in the literature that do suggest that this 'Odelberg' design first saw the light of day c. 1890 - 1900.       Have to agree that the pattern is particularly attractive  -  the Decanter shape is what is probably in the U.K. called a 'taper', which was a popular shape in the U.K. late C18, and the design of the drinking glasses reflects a similar period.              Perhaps it might be called 'neo-Georgian' (George the III) ;D        Certainly many of the elements of the design of 'Odelberg' were being used 1780 - 1800.   
This suggests a copying of English/French styles - in Sweden in late C19 - some hundred years or so after the originals were created.

The only substantial English text volume on decanters doesn't include any examples of 'Odelberg', although there is some text, which suggests that Kosta were borrowing earlier ideas, from mainland, Europe in the C19.
I like the green drinking glass  -  thanks for linking your own catalogue pages  -  very useful. :)                 Shard picking could be painful ;)

Offline kerstinfroberg

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Re: Possibly Georgian Goblet/Rummer? ID = Kosta
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 10:47:32 PM »
By the 1890ies several Swe glassworks were trying to get into the British market (actually, just a few years later they were trying hard to dominate the Brit market - ) so, if they thought the (Odelberg) type was high fashion -

We (the museum nerds) have found several interesting sources describing the Swe glassworks tries to ... take over(?) the Brit market, starting with the Pall Mall service in 1897. (some years later, the PM was almost the end of Swe glass industry) (and that was not the beginning of the export to Britain, either)
As all the sources are in Swedish, and somewhat fragmented, it will take time before we have a coherent story to present.
But we are working on it...

We also have indications that many models manufactured primarily for export never figured in the Swe catalogues.

I will continue to publish catalogues as I find them - feel free to both use them AND to add to them!

Kerstin

 

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