No-one likes general adverts, and ours hadn't been updated for ages, so we're having a clear-out and a change round to make the new ones useful to you. These new adverts bring in a small amount to help pay for the board and keep it free for you to use, so please do use them whenever you can, Let our links help you find great books on glass or a new piece for your collection. Thank you for supporting the Board.

Author Topic: What constitutes proof, with specific reference to Australia  (Read 3459 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Glen

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 2898
  • Gender: Female
    • Carnival Glass Research and Writing
What constitutes proof, with specific reference to Australia
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2004, 08:58:44 AM »
Does anyone else feel like chipping in on the non-Australian part of this thread?
i.e.

“What sort of proof is acceptable before one can state, for certain, that a piece of glass is definitely made by a particular company?”

(Apologies for using the word "chipping" on a glass message board :twisted: )

Glen
Just releasedCarnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-booksthree volumes available
For all info see http://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9424
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Europe
    • Gateway
What constitutes proof, with specific reference to Australia
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2004, 10:16:19 AM »
That is easy Glen,

1. Memories are unreliable.
2. Faking is popular
3. Plagiarism, licensing/sale of design, similarity, etc.

Therefore.

First hand account, supported by photographs and a sworn legal statement to the effect.

I should add that even this would not be a complete guarantee but about the most that could be achieved given human nature.

I believe similar questions are raised in most areas of pholsophy and ultimately the question falls into that category.

 :!:

Offline Glen

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 2898
  • Gender: Female
    • Carnival Glass Research and Writing
What constitutes proof, with specific reference to Australia
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2004, 12:41:42 PM »
I would certainly support the view that first hand accounts, with photos and a sworn legal statement would do the trick.

But....... I wish that were a practical option in some of the areas I work in. Attempting to get first hand accounts, sourced from some distant countries, for a time line that would date back to the early 1900s, would be rather difficult (certainly for me, anyhow) :roll:

Back to photos for a moment - they can help us with all sorts of amazing background information as well. One of the most astounding discoveries of the year (for me) was the uncovering of a mass of archive photos of the Rindskopf glass works.
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/RindskopfHome.html

Glass research is detective work - especially when one is looking back to the 1800s and early 1900s.

Glen
Just releasedCarnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-booksthree volumes available
For all info see http://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9424
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Europe
    • Gateway
What constitutes proof, with specific reference to Australia
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2004, 01:35:20 PM »
My previous reaction is probably closest to truth but it is also possible to be more pragmatic unless one is firmly entrenched in the philosophical perspective.

It can be just as difficult getting data from as little as 10 years ago. I have found a wide variety of 'opinion' and first hand tales which are often in complete opposition.

At the end of the day you are left with the option of grading researched information into a number of groups.

Beyond reasonable doubt,

1. Supported by documentary evidence.
2. Supported by verbal/written evidence from multiple sources.

Some doubts remain,
1. Supported by first hand verbal evidence
2. Supported by inference from related sources

Moving into hearsay,
1. Supported by contemporary press reports
2. Supported by second hand verbal/written evidence
3. Supported by previous research where the researcher has been doubted.

Hearsay,
1. Rumour.
2. Stories passed through several hands.

However with hand made glass there is the potential to provide an attribution from techniques that are known 'fingerprints' of the maker. Moulds ownership and provenance, as we have seen, can be taken as good source. Catalogues of the factory, although non-photographic types can lead to uncertainty.

The issue of a product being made in the attributed glassworks can also be taken at two levels and is largely personal taste.
1. This was a product sold in that region by that company as their product with their mark or label regardless of actual maker. It is their product.
2. They did not make it.

Examples:
Stuart Strathearn, Crieff Scotland. Produced at Stuart Crystal in Stourbridge marked as and sold as a product of Stuart Strathearn.

Jules Lang, London and UK. Own design registration but just a retailer. Maybe they actually designed the pieces they registered in the UK and maybe not!

Tony Henry, Baccarat, France. Retailer of Baccarat in early 20th century, now a git shop of the same name. Items have appeared on eBay as Tony Henry.

Offline Glen

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 2898
  • Gender: Female
    • Carnival Glass Research and Writing
What constitutes proof, with specific reference to Australia
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2004, 01:41:55 PM »
Quote from: "Frank"
Tony Henry, Baccarat, France. Retailer of Baccarat in early 20th century, now a git shop of the same name.


No doubt aimed at selling to the lower echelons.  :lol:

Seriously now - I enjoyed reading your further comments Frank. Thanks
Just releasedCarnival from Finland & Norway e-book!
Also, Riihimki e-book and Carnival from Sweden e-book.
Sowerby e-booksthree volumes available
For all info see http://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/
Copyright G&S Thistlewood

Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9424
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Europe
    • Gateway
What constitutes proof, with specific reference to Australia
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2004, 01:58:41 PM »
My French IS bad  :oops:

And I forgot

Heresy
Supported by Octopus

Offline KevinH

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • *
  • Posts: 6083
    • England
What constitutes proof, with specific reference to Australia
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2004, 07:44:09 PM »
Hi folks,

I felt I really should say something about "scientific proof" - which in fact usually turns out to be no real proof at all, but may be useful in some circumstances.

Ultravoilet and Specific Gravity testing.

Most of us know about the claims of proof of glassware containing uranium, "because it glows green under blacklight". And many of us are also aware that a green UV reaction does not necessarily indicate uranium content (it seems that most soda glass, and aslo lots of lead glass, will show as green under longwave UV light [blacklight]). This highlights a very relevant difficulty with regard to UV testing.

But UV tests can be helpful in cases where enough items from a supposedly known company are checked out. Where testing of many pieces shows one or more definite ranges of UV reaction, any similar item that does not conform can be marked as "possibly not from the supposed maker". It will then require further evidence to establish whether the item is indeed from a different company or is actually the first seen of a new range of UV results from the primary company. The differing UV results indicate a change in the main glass batch, which can easily be the case within any company, particulalry a long-established one.

In my specialist field of Ysart (and other Scottish) paperweights, working on the back of original investigations of other PCC members, I have established that there are, indeed, distinct UV results for various items. These have helped to show that certain items are not Ysart (one specific is that fake py weights show a UV result that is not seen for any period of the genuine item).

So, perhaps if enough pieces from any company are examined under UV, a set of results can be drawn up that act as a guide to "genuineness"?

But UV testing has several drawbacks. Not least of which is the fact that using just a blacklight is not really adequate. Shortwave UV will often show a different result for the same item and it is this dual testing that sets the guide criteria.

Another drawback is that different folk can see colours in different shades (and I am told that generally, the colour sensitivity of men and women is different). This means that a UV reaction in, say, a shade of green, may be described differently by the various observers, with perhaps some claiming a "match" to a guide colour and others saying it's not so!

As for Specific Gravity tests, these can help to identify different glass mixes - for example, a basic soda mix may have a SG value of say 2.4 whereas a lead mix could be at least 2.6. But as with UV tests, SG measures are not definitive and are subject to personal testing variations as well as "technical complications".

I have, however, been able to verify that even though my own SG results differ somewhat from similar tests by others, the results can consistently show items that stand out as "questionable". Again, the fake Ysart paperweights are a good example, where the SG measures are clearly not of the same normal range as the genuine items.

The main caveat with SG tests is pretty much the same as for UV checks - it is not possible to identify a specific company or maker as the producer of a given piece. Only by testing many pieces can a general rule of thumb be drawn up and used as a guide for identifying "oddities".

Both UV and SG tests can therefore be helpful as an additional clue in the excitement (or tedium?) of research.

I have no idea whether these tests would be helpful in checking out the Aussie bits and pieces. But it could be worth a try.
KevinH

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk
Look for glass on
ebay.co.uk
Visit the Glass Encyclopedia
link to glass encyclopedia
Look for glass on
ebay.com (us)
Visit the Online Glass Museum
link to glass museum


This website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand