Topic: Baccarat unusual vase any ideas on date?

[flying free]

I can find one set of Saint Louis goblets with a green 'pineapple ish but not really' knop (ie it is a faceted knop) in opaline green possibly uranium glass,  in the stem, that date to 1840-1850 - Les Baguiers, Darnis L. p 159
I can find two bowls on stems with the turned back petalled collar in blue and white that date to c. 1845-1850 pp 57 - same book as above.  They appear to be described as 'pate de riz' (should be a hat above the a in pate but I don't know how to do it).  But there is something different about the way the edges of the petals are and yours have been cut polished and gilded and I think yours looks more Bohemian in make than French. But I could be wrong!

Do you have reference for the shape dating back to 1790?

I do recall seeing a trumpet shaped opaline vase with a turned back plain rim that I think dated to 1820 where I was surprised it was so early, but I just cannot remember where I saw it and it was only a few days ago.

There is a Harrach very large vase on stand that is green and white that is dated to 1873 iirc.

Isn't crizzling damage?

m

[cdm1christopher]

I'll have to sift through baccarat catalogues.  Take a while but they where experimenting with opaline glass back in I think 1780/90 and where designing amongst other things  scaled down in size pineapple stand/stands.  But! more in line with a compote.  Same pineapple cut same colour opaline same green but the guilding on petals was much more ornate.  I'll see if I can track a particular piece i gound somewhere and copy and paste the picture.  Hence I thought it was poss baccarat.  But m I think your right in the first place 're Czech.
I think that's subjective 're crizzling damage!  All it means is the glass is slowly breaking down.  I know some manaufacturers would add this crizzling as a feature during the glass making process Mdina comes to mind and they are rare and very expensive.  So in fact maybe it was a deliberate feature.  Otherwise just normal process of glass breaking down.  Look at early Venetian glass some pieces have more or less broken into pieces but are still highly cherished.  Long winded I know but damage depends how you look at it really.

Chris

[cdm1christopher]

Ah here we go listed on eBay as baccarat 1880.

[cdm1christopher]

Missing pineapple cut.

[flying free]

yes but ebay isn't a primary reference source is it?

That leaf design gilded is also something I have seen on pieces identified as Bohemian in museum glass and also Russian.  I am not sure I have seen it on a definitely French piece but I could be wrong.  I do recall seeing ( what I think might be  French) a deep dark blue opaline leaf shaped dish (on a French antiques auction site) but I cannot remember if it actually had the leaf gilding on it.


And crizzling. Mdina 'crizzled' glass isn't the same thing at all as far as I am aware.  Chopin knows much much more about Mdina than I will ever know so hopefully will be able to explain more about it.
Crizzling caused by sick glass/bad batch cannot be stopped and it means the glass will eventually fall to pieces I think?

I still think yours looks Bohemian by the way it is made, however ... the pineapple stem isn't something I've come across, so who knows, it might be French.


m

[cdm1christopher]

It's listed as maybe baccarat but no I don't take eBay as a resource for info.  Just interesting to see how designs differ and if not marked how hard it is to actually pin it down. But it does resemble the design in the museum.  Yes the glass will eventually break as does old venetion glass due to the glass mixture being unstable.  But that takes a good 300 to 400 hundred years.  So I think it still has some life in it and I'm sure it will out live me.  Displays beautifully.
Not sure where term sick glass etc comes from?  Surely before they made the pieces they must have known the batch was inconsistent/unstable?  Or was it used to make prototypes not necessarly intended to be sold on?  The reason I'm thinking this is because the more I look at the piece I wonder if it is complete from a decorative point of view.
Anyhow hopefully the museum will get back to me so long as they understand English!!!   Orrefors usually pretty good.
Mdina to be honest does not appeal to me at all just read somewhere that they made a few designs with crizzling effect.  See one somewhere.  Probably eBay ha ha.  Just kidding.

[flying free]

 I don't think all Venetian glass breaks down does it?

[flying free]

They didn't always know the batch was unstable.
I guess it may have been fine for a good number of years then started to deteriorate.

I can recommend reading the information that Walter Spiegl has online regarding various types of glass.  There is mention within his writings of crizzling in glass and why.
http://www.glas-forschung.info/

There is also some amazing information out there in books such as Das Bohmische Glas (various Bands) and From Neuwelt to the Whole World for example.
Books can be a great resource depending on when and whom written by of course.

Also do have  read about this wonderful piece of glass from c.1680
http://wb.britishmuseum.org/MCN138#1489945001
There are a small number of versions of this piece, a couple are crizzled the others not as far as I read.
m

[cdm1christopher]

Thanks m been a great help.  I'll definitely have a read.
Yes I had a quick scan and a lot of museum pieces seem to suffer from crizzling interesting.

I had another look at the glass and it's not splinters it's actually aklaine deposits so I'll give it a delicate wash tomorrow.

Well I'm glad it's revived an interest.  Not often you come across pieces like this. 

But I think your original thinking Czech is spot on.  I think can def rule out baccarat.

[cdm1christopher]

No not all Venetian glass but it seems quite common in early pieces.