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Author Topic: Victorian Glass Vase Raspberry Pontil S&W Rockingham / Thomas Webb OR Walsh  (Read 579 times)

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Offline flying free

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The feet are not the same though John.

The ones I referred to in the Gulliver book are I believe,the same,made with the same tool.
There are a few in the Gulliver book but only that one is the same.

m

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Offline glassobsessed

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And how many have raspberry prunts over a pontil scar?

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Offline flying free

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well, I've not time to double check them all buy Gulliver was I believe careful to only id where there was primary evidence to support.
There is an example on page 64,item 8 which has an rd on it for Hodgetts Richardson & Son 238052, with scroll reeded feet (slightly less tightly curled than yours,but with fine multi reeded application similar to yours) and also has an applied raspberry prunt if that helps?

Oh, and, he shows two Stuart examples on page 52 of raspberry prunts and says ' applied to the base of an item by Stuart'.
So, Stuart,yes to shell scroll foot that looks remarkably similar to the foot on Greg's piece and yes to them using raspberry prunts,but so far,no evidence to show Stuart did a foil intercalaire decor.

m

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Offline flying free

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More info


re that item 81 Greg - Bernard's was id'd as Stuart but this is also very similar and may be that pattern possibly?:
http://www.glassfairs.co.uk/news.html#stourbridge

It says these are attributed to S&W but are Thomas Webb and Sons.

So thus far - no pointers to Stevens and Williams on the 'Rockingham foil' items - but some pointers to Stuart (scroll foot and raspberry prunt) and others to Thomas Webb and Sons (potential decor match linking item in Gulliver to item on sale as Rockingham S&W through Fieldings)

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Offline flying free

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Is it possible that the vase in the Saleroom link is red but overcooked? 
Also,they describe it as having aventurine in it.  Is it?  Looks like foil or leaf to me  ???

And if they are wrong about it being aventurine,then maybe they are wrong about it being 'clear cased'?  Perhaps it was cased in an amber hence it appearing more brown than red?

m

Thanks for the link John. Interesting piece.

For comparison here are a few examples I have come across which have been attributed to 'S&W Rockingham'

http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/120778

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/fieldings-auctioneers-ltd/catalogue-id-srfi10083/lot-51f0ff9e-61a8-4393-ad7b-a89b01018269

The two vases in the above links are both the same shape as each other, so assuming the S&W Rockingham attribution for these is correct, they at least demonstrate quite a difference in the way the colours have been used.



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Offline flying free

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I don't collect this era, but I do have the Williams-Thomas book. I'm more bleary-eyed than usual but I can't find any illustration of Rockingham in it, unfortunately.
There is no mention of a colour called 'Rockingham' in the extensive list of colours on page 72 either.
Just mentioning that because it's odd (odd on the part of the book i mean, and maybe indicates the colour list in the book was not comprehensive) especially if as Bonham's say this was written in the pattern book as Rockingham/Ruby:

quote Bonhams
'FOOTNOTES
This design appears in the Stevens and Williams factory Pattern Book no.14 listing designs 15532-16644 from 5 June 1890 to 27 June 1891. This is listed as 'Pillared Rock Crystal' with 'Rockingham/Ruby' colouring. The cutting cost 10 shillings and Orchard was paid 13 shillings. The factory selling price (unmounted) was three guineas.'

Link to the item for this description:
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23586/lot/147/


m

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Offline KevinH

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In my post #18 I mentioned that I had not read the full thread in detail.

I now see that Greg, in his post #12 had already covered the question of Rockingham being a colour /  design / pattern. And he referred to Manley, (Decorative Victorian Glass), page 62, item 93.

My post #18 attempted to add some detail about the actual construction of that Manley vase, for which I have a "twin". I also tried to give some thoughts on the colours of the glass and the "silver flecks". And I said "... the layer of silver flecks definitely shows as vertical lines of silver and amber ...". That statement was incorrect (I wrote the post at about 3am - not the best time of day for my concentration). What I should have said was something along the lines of:

" ... the layer of silver flecks definitely shows as vertical lines of amber and a colour that seems to move towards a deeper amber or even a translucent ruby, depending on lighting conditions. The main point is that the silver flecks (foil / leaf), show as amber because (I believe) they are set on clear glass below an amber casing. And the flecks that seem to be a deeper colour towards translucent ruby only occur where there is thicker outer crystal covering them, such as with the ribbing and the thickness of the ckear glass at the foot of the vase. ..."

And my comment about there possibly being rods of deeper amber / translucent ruby was simply incorrect. ... Although in certain veiwing angles there is, curiously, an appearance of a "ribbed cane" below the high points of the outer ribbing of the vase! I think it is an optical illusion.

The references (such as by Helen W and m) to the Bonhams rock crystal scent bottle are I think very useful. But I find it hard to relate any of the shades of ruby in that bottle to the colours in my (and Manley's) vase - except in some specifc lighting conditions.

I wil try to get some photos of parts of my vase to show what I am trying to say.
KevinH

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Offline flying free

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Kev we posted at the same time.  But I've written it now so I'm going to post it anyway :)


Rockingham  Ware was a Wedgwood treacly brown glaze colour used from c.1865 from what I can deduce.

So - is it possible that 'Rockingham' was what S&W called that dark reddy brown or browny red colour seen on the overlay casing on that crystal jug from Bonhams, in homage to the Rockingham Ware from Wedgwood?

Reading Manley I agree with you Kev that he was using Rockingham to describe a colour of glass.

But where is his proof that vase (item 93) was made by Stevens and Williams?




Without wishing to muddy the waters, could the confusion with silver foil items might have come into play because:

 in Charles Hajdamach British Glass 1800-1914 pp 287-289 he talks about the popularity of the combination of glass with metal as a decorative technique in the latter part of the 19th century.  He says not only in England but in Europe and the United States. He goes on to talk about Stevens and Williams developing an electro-plating silver deposit method.

This silver plating was used on the outside of their glass pieces from my reading of the above article in the book,  but he goes on to say that it was also used on china, because on page 288 and 289 he continues the description of S&W development of this method as follows:
'On Stevens and Williams examples the silver was usually engraved with linear designs and buffed to a bright shine.  Some silver deposit decoration was also carried out on ceramics at the glassworks. Two entries in the pattern books,at numbers 24347 and 24348, read 'Coalport China silver deposit' and 'Rockingham Ware silver deposit' and date to the very end of 1897'.
(The 'Rockingham Ware' may be a coincidence in our narrative because Wedgwood have a range called Rockingham Ware)

The silver plating method CH describes in the book appears to describe a surface decoration method of silver deposit on the outside of the glass. He references a black and white plate 209 on page 217 which appears to have a silver surface deposit rim and foot (but difficult to tell in a b/w photo). I don't read it that it is describing a method of using silver internally in a glass item and then casing it over in glass.




Is it possible that somewhere along the line the word 'Rockingham'  has  been misappropriated and used as a descriptor for those items that contain a dark red or  reddy brown glass and also have silver foil encased in them?  Possibly taken from Manley's description of item 93?
Did Manley know something about that vase item no 93 that he wasn't telling? did he know S&W made it  or did he just decide it must have been from S&W?  There are many other examples in his book which have not been correctly identified.





The Bonhams descriptor taken from the pattern books could therefore accurately describe the pillar rock crystal jug, as it could be Rockingham (the colour which is a dark reddy brown or browny red) cased over Ruby (which is the brighter red glass that can be seen on the internal layer) or ...

 it could be that the colours show as dark red over lighter red because it was a thick layer of red glass and, where it has been cut back in cameo, the result is the thicker parts just look darker than the thinner parts.  So in fact the 'Rockingham' part of the 'Rockingham/Ruby' descriptor in the pattern book actually refers to 'Rockingham' being some silver deposit S&W made on the piece, over 'Ruby' being the entire red colour glass they used to make the blank.
It may well be that a silversmith then added further silver embellishment (lid,spout,curlicues?) as well as the already applied (bands around jug body, and foot and plated handle?) 'Rockingham' silver put on by S&W.

But the pieces which have intercalaire silver foil, i.e. sandwiched between two layers of glass, and are also made from  glass which may contain a reddy brown or browny red colour included somewhere in the item, cannot accurately be identified as 'S&W' or even 'S&W Rockingham' without further evidence that S&W made glass in this encased foil method can they?  i.e. Manley's item 93 and the items Greg linked to.


m

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Offline KevinH

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m said ... "But where is his proof that vase (item 93) was made by Stevens and Williams?"

He claimed the shape of the vase was what made it S&W (see the descriptive text for the item).
KevinH

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Offline flying free

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He did but with no pattern id to back it up.
And unfortunately he also claimed lots of other items in the book were English makers and they were not.
And unfortunate also that the shape of that vase is just a 'vase' shape.  It is bulbous at the bottom with a tall thinner elongated neck and perhaps an applied foot (photography bad in the book).  i.e. it doesn't have any distinguishing features in it's shape to determine it definitively,unless we have other examples of this exact shape and size to back up the S&W id.

There is an item online that is referred to as Webb Argentine. It's one bowl in a browny red glass over foil.
I think it might be on Pinterest now if you put Webb ARgentine into a search and then look at images, but might originally have come from the Black County museums collection online site when it was available to view up to a few years ago. I can't find the site now.

It's an interesting piece.



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