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Author Topic: big vase Art Noveau? - ID = Andries Copier for Leerdam  (Read 2173 times)

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Offline BlueOctopus

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big vase Art Noveau? - ID = Andries Copier for Leerdam
« on: October 13, 2019, 03:01:00 PM »
Hello again
I would like to ask for help with this big vase. My photos were to big,so I had to scale them heavy down and can only present this vase in peaces.

This is a hertiage from the parents or maybe even grandparents of my husband. The beauty is 32 cm high and at the biggest diameter 23 cm. Not so heavy one could expect for this sieze.

I don´t have a clou from where it might be, but from the movements of the horses I´m pretty sure that this is art neuveau. Don´t ask me why, but i have the feeling from france. The family lived near Netherlands so that is a possibility as well. They had a lot of money, I think they never would have bought cheap things.

The overlay is very thin, that is the reason why the vase lookes at some points white spotted, the overlay is too thin at that. Sometimes I think that might be not an overlay, maybe a colour? The glass itself is not perfect, but that gives a dynamic to the horses. Hope you can see that on the pictures.

Do you have an idea?

Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2019, 07:18:01 PM »
I think this is coloured with a very, very fine layer of enamel - in a manner called flashing.
It would be described as flashed.
It has been cut or etched over that layer, removing all the enamel to leave the image behind.
This was something done in Bohemia, (vague, I know  ::) )  around the time you're talking about, and I'm sure the quality of the work is what is important when it comes to this genre.

And the quality of work on this is outstanding - I have not seen anything this good before.
It looks rather unique and very special. :)
I'm not sure that the horses mightn't be a little Deco rather than Nouveau though.
Just the feeling I get. Others might feel completely differently.  ;D
Cheers, Sue M. (she/her)

‘For every problem there is a solution: neat, plausible and wrong’. H.L.Mencken

Offline BlueOctopus

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2019, 07:31:55 PM »
Hello Sue
Thank you, so this convinced me with my feeling that the overlay is too thin. I think flashed is what we call in Germany Beize or gebeizt. I thought flashing is a newer procedure.

Yes this vase  is outstanding .
Monika

Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2019, 07:53:25 PM »
I have a couple of Bohemian flashed bottles I inherited from my grandmother, who thought they were very precious because they were "old".  ;D

They are horrible quality, not worth anything. But I'm 62, my grandmother was born in the late 19th century. So I don't think his very fine layer of "flash" is very new.
She certainly had them long before I was born, and she thought they were old.
(She might have been wrong, she often was.)

I've been thinking there is something a bit Picasso-ish about your horses. His daughter, Paloma did glass design. She did some work for Villeroy and Boch, but I haven't found anything like your vase by her, so far.
Cheers, Sue M. (she/her)

‘For every problem there is a solution: neat, plausible and wrong’. H.L.Mencken

Offline BlueOctopus

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2019, 08:09:02 PM »
Picasso-isch
That is a good view, now I know why I thought French. I heard a bell but could not say from where it comes. Picasso, Franz Marc(blaue Pferde) the engraving looks more then a painting. Thank you.

Still no idea from where it comes but the Picasso-isch is more worth.

Do you know how resistant this flashing is?
Monika

Offline BlueOctopus

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2019, 08:24:48 PM »
It is so funny....

You helped me solving a absolute different riddle...

Today someone posted a question about blue faceted items where it was discussed if this could be a salts. Iposted that salts are smaller and a picture of my salts. In the back of this picture are a Pepper and salt pot I recently bought and had no idea how made them.

Now surching for horses and glass with Picasso I found the maker of my salts... Paloma Picasso

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/villeroy-boch-paloma-picasso-glass-1777710919

Funny, you look and look and find something absolutely different  ;D

Offline Paul S.

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2019, 10:07:22 PM »
Sorry, regret absolutely no idea as to provenance/attribution for this vase, but would agree this piece looks to be neither from the nouveau period - c. 1880 to 1918 or even in the nouveau style, but I like the Picasso analogy, though perhaps these horses are a little too realistic for him  -  much of his imagery is contorted to the point where some imagination is usually required to understand what we're supposed to be looking at.
But if I can add a few thoughts to some of the replies already posted - partly because I usually forget the differences between some of the overlay processes and partly as some might find them of interest - so here are a few words in respect of  'Staining' and 'Flashing':

Staining:    Either by means of dipping into a stain or painting the stain on, metal oxides are applied to clear glass then the piece is fired to 'fix' the colour.          Think of all those drinking glasses in Egermann 'ruby red', often with cut to clear (wheel engraved) images of hunting scenes.
Apparently the Egermann pieces (Bohemia) were treated with a mixture of gold and copper oxides.        He also produced a yellow stain by means of silver chloride, and invented a surface effect to mimic agate, which he called Lithyalin. 

Flashing:    This is a lower quality process that omits the firing, and involves applying a very thin layer of molten coloured glass to clear glass bodies, again by either painting or dipping  -  unsurprisingly, the two fuse as they cool.

As far as I'm aware, there aren't any 'enamels' used in either process.   

Perhaps not easy to tell the difference between C19 Bohemian and U.K. pieces so treated  -  apparently there was much British flashed, cased and stained material produced  -  much for the Great Exhibition in 1851  -  though it may have been that Brits. were making a nod toward what they may have envied as a Bohemian success.          Of course, if the image is of a boar hunt then the piece might be from that area. ;)   
Am I correct in thinking that much tourist ware in this red flashing are still produced in Germany?   

Though I'm totally ignorant of modern cheap methods of colouring clear glass, I see many pieces in charity shops where a 'colour' has been inexpensively painted onto a glass body  -  so cheap it eventually flakes off.

Might this vase have been acid cut, or perhaps the effects of wheel engraving can be seen on the body.


Offline flying free

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2019, 10:18:39 PM »
For some reason I'm wondering if this might be Riedel.

I can't tell you why.  Just that is what popped straight into my head looking at the cameo (reverse cameo?) effect and the layers of the clear and the shape of the rim of the piece. And the way it is blown.

I would start with that if it were mine.


I'm probably way off but still ... if it were me that's where I would start looking.

Can you roll up a sheet of paper and slot it inside as that might photograph the horses better without reflection?
Also, reduce your photos to 620 x 400 pixels and they should post ?

It is an absolutely stunning vase btw.  The stylised horses are superb.
m

Offline flying free

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2019, 10:51:04 PM »
The shape of the rim and the colour also remind me of some Reich cameo vases as well.

Probably wrong on both as there doesn't appear to be anything similar online but I'd look at both those if it were me.  Just in case, even though there appears to be nothing  ;D

m

Offline BlueOctopus

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Re: big vase Art Noveau? any idea of ID
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 07:12:46 PM »
To be honest , I ‚m not very familiar with my camera and the photoshop Programm, but on the week end in the day light I will try my best. Unfortunately I don‘t have catalogues  of Riedel and Reich. And I will have a look with a magnification for wheel carve signes. But that I doubt that it is acid carved, vor me the lines are too sharpe for acid.
Monika

 

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