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Author Topic: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908  (Read 4043 times)

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Offline Ekimp

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2021, 09:03:29 PM »
I'm wondering is the coloured cameo design  acid etched as well?

This is a good close up of what my bowl is like - not my close up
https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0411/users/1/8/4/6/fracito6915-img955x1030-15421004085nlaug29901.jpg
Thatís what I assumed. Maybe if the coloured layer was very thin they could etch it away in the same process as etching the texture (as you speculate at the end of reply #13).

The bowl in your link above looks like the design outline was needle etched first (a bit like John Northwoodís work), you can see on the left in the top photo where the line wasnít followed very well.
People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day - Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline flying free

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2021, 10:07:42 PM »
So as to avoid confusion and not talking at cross purposes, I think each of those little hatched background lines that make up the leaf style pattern on the Eglantier bowl is raised off the surface.  I don't thinkthey're cut into the glass, or needle etched into the glass as they do sometimes look. I think they're raised off the glass as though someone pressed a metal mold against the bowl that had tiny lines cut into the metal mold which then left raised lines on the surface of  the bowl.

The pink cameo flowers and scrolls are raised cameo cut and are slightly higher raised than the impressed background leaf pattern. 

I really have no idea how they managed to make those background patterns though.


Offline flying free

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2021, 10:19:00 PM »
Interestingly, the Baccarat Eglantier series of toiletry articles appears in the 1916 catalogue 'tafel 16'

https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Baccarat-1916-br-Garnitures-de.54+B6YmFja1BJRD01NCZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MjE1MSZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD01NCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html

I couldn't see my Baccarat bowl there though.


Of course it could have appeared earlier.  I'm pretty sure my Saint-Louis bowl is correct in being pattern 630 dating  from 1908 catalogue.


This link shows an Eglantier decor perfume with the same scrolls and cross with circle design as my Baccarat bowl and the seller says it is referenced in the 1903-4 Baccarat catalogue as well as the 1916.
https://www.alexiaamatoantiques.com/en-GB/scent-bottles-sewing-items/unusual-antique-baccarat-eglantier-cranberry-uranium-bottle/prod_12743#.YTk2Cp1KhPY

Offline Ekimp

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2021, 12:00:39 PM »
This glass probably hasnít got much in common with your items ;D but I think it is an example of the transfer resist acid etched method. It has a band of hatched diamonds, the photos arenít brilliant, but the texture of the diamonds reminds me of that on your bowl.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174445372350
I got this 50p tumbler last week as I wanted an example of the transfer resist acid etched method. Itís not been done very well but I see itís the same decoration as in my eBay link and a closeup of the hatching might be of interest for comparison with the decor of the bowl.
People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day - Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline flying free

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2021, 12:16:05 AM »
In all honesty I don't think they're related to the bowls but the technique might be similar/the same?

Your posting prompted me - I've been doing some reading over the last week or so and whilst I can't link it and no idea where I read it, I read something about 'paper patterns' for these acid etched bowls/pieces. 
I couldn't even begin to think how that could be possible but I did read that.  Somewhere in an old book contemporary to the time of making.

m

Offline Ekimp

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2021, 07:28:27 AM »
Yes, it was purely the technique that I thought might be the same, not suggesting theyíre related in any way :)

Think itís called plate etching: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,13714.msg88128.html#msg88128
People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day - Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline cagney

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2021, 07:59:26 PM »
I think you are correct in your attribution of the acid etched "half moon " to St. Louis. I came to the same conclusion while researching a set of four acid etched cameo tumblers.
Of the handful of signed Baccarat acid etched cameo pieces I have seen all had the 'fern/leaf" like background. Val ST Lambert I believe used a stylized flower motif on their acid etched cameo as background.
The process I believe is double etching. Simply put a design is etched on a object of cased glass and then an added design is produced in a second dipping in the acid while the first design is covered. Creating two depths of etching. This technique was used by Frederick Carder at Steuben and is very discernible on some pieces as the casing can be quite thick and the etching quite deep compared to the French/Belgian acid etched cameo.

In the photo's if you look carefullyYou may be able to see that the raised portion of the"half moons" is the same depth as the non-patterned etched border design from the first dipping. The lower section of "half moons"being a deeper depth formed in the second dipping.Especially seen where raised lines directly intersect with the cased portion.

Offline flying free

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2021, 08:24:54 PM »
Lovely photos and thanks for the explanation.  But how and what did they use to get that repeat background pattern?
I can't get my head around how they did it.

m

Offline cagney

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2021, 09:54:58 PM »
A very detailed description of the process developed by Frederic Carder at Steuben. It is quite illuminating:

Carder established the etching room at Steuben about 1906. He had become familiar with the process of etching designs on glass early in his career at Stevens & Williams, where he used it as the first step in the productions of cameo glass. The acid-etched pieces produced at Steuben were made by transferring the design to the glass by means of a print made on paper in a "wax ink".

This print was taken from a plate etched with the reverse, or negative, of the pattern desired. The plate could be of glass or metal. Carder usually used a sheet of plate glass about one-quarter inch thick because it was cheaper than steel or copper. The pattern plate was warmed slightly, and the etched portion filled with "ink", which was a compound of asphaltum, beeswax, gum mastic, and turpentine. These elements were proportioned to form a paste that, when warm, was about the consistency of peanut butter; it spread easily into every detail of the etched pattern. After the excess ink was scraped off, a special transfer paper was placed on the warm ink and rubbed down just enough to make the ink adhere to the paper when the paper was peeled back from the plate. The paper with the design in ink was then applied to the glass object and rubbed down with a felt "rubber" to ensure a perfect union between the glass and the ink. Next, the paper was moistened with water and peeled away, leaving the ink pattern on the glass object to be etched.


The portions of the glass not covered with the pattern were painted with wax to protect them from the etching acid. Then the object was immersed in the etching acid for the time required to etch the designs to the desired depth. Afterward, the wax coating was removed, revealing the completed etched design. Etched patterns were discontinued about 1934.

A photo of some matching pieces to your salad bowl.

Offline flying free

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Re: Cristalleries de Saint-Louis bowl 1908
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2021, 10:30:54 PM »
Thank you :)

Wow.  So these minute etched patterns were created by rubbing paper with wax pattern on it onto the body of the vase so the minutely detailed wax pattern stuck to the vase?  And then it was dipped.  I'm agog at the amount of work that would have to go into that.

I've just noticed that a different version of this acid etched minute repeat pattern is on the body of a Clichy piece dated 1870s.  So it was being done it appears, much earlier than turn of century.

 

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