Where are the Monart miniatures?

[Frank]

Since I started collecting Monart, I have always hunted out the miniature vases. Anything under 100mm high.

See plate 50 in Ysart Glass for one of the most common I found, about 6 in twenty years.

Plates 51-53 don't really qualify as they were small objects by their nature. Apart from that I only ever had half a dozen and sold all for substantial premiums over the same colour schemes in normal sizes, say 5" - 12".

Vasart  minis are less rare because of their emphasis on the gift trade, see plate 134 in Ysart Glass. But still relatively scarce in nicer shapes and colouring.

So... where are all the Monart ones? There must be at least few dozen more in existence. Maybe not so many?

From all of the large collections I have seen in 20+ years, I know they are rare beasts. Ian Turner sold a handfull at Christie's, but few appear in other auctions of Monart.

[millarart]

Good point Frank   Monart minatures are very scarce and therefore i would imagine be expensive to purchase, it may be that there are a lot still lying about in peoples houses ect that still get used for keeping bits n bobs in  ect as they dont stick out like the bigger pieces and therefore dont get thrown out /given away when decor changes ect or broken so easy,
                Gary :lol:

[RAY]

how much do these's mini's fetch?

[MHJ02]

I'm trying to add miniatures to my collection.   Pity you are excluding the Y pin dishes -I have 7 including 2 x 3.75" ones.   I've got 3 MB's, an SA, RA, a couple of GE's, 2 x ZH and a QC.  

I've found prices have varied from piece to piece ie £65 - £120, but think I've been reasonably lucky.  

I agree with Gary's comments that people probably tend to keep/use them, but it's also possible they are unaware of what they have.

The only way we will get a feel for what's out there is for collectors to use this Forum to say what miniatures they have in their collection.   At least then we'd get an idea of variety.   I bet there's some incredible shaped ones.

Mary  :wink:

[Frank]

No idea really, I sold the 3 or 4 I had in the 90's at around 300 to 400 pounds a piece. But on the odd occasions the MB bowl/vase shows up on eBay they have not attracted much interest and gone for less than 100. I had one footed vase in blue/black/gold that I let go in the last couple of years.

You could check out the 2002-3 ebay results on http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/EbayYwatch2002.htm

Following list updated as data comes in (23rd Sept 06)
The 17 minature vases/bowls are potentially:
(Where a height is given it was measured from an example but is not listed in the original catalogues.)

A size X & XI
C size X & XI
D size XI
N size 95mm
O size XI
Y size XII & XIII
AA size 60mm probably XI
IA size XI
RA size XI
SA size X & XI
MB size XI (Halfway between a vase and a bowl)
TB  size XI although nominally 4.5 inches as footed clearly miniature
GC size XI
XD size 90mm
GE size XII
HF size 90mm
RG sizes IX (104mm) & 95mm
JH IX
JJ 100mm
YK X+

The following are small items rather than miniatures, but look good in a collection of miniatures. All are more common than the above miniatures, particularly the drinking glasses which are still found in sets.

YB  size XI borderline as it is a drinking glass
QC size X & XI borderline as it is a drinking glass in these sizes
EE size XII (depends on height as technically a bowl)
GG is a candle holder not a miniature
BJ is a spill/match holder, not a miniature
QJ is a candle holder not a miniature
PK is a candle holder not a miniature

Surface decorated miniatures are unheard of. I have a unique sugar bowl and jug set with cane decoration from the earliest Monart period, non-catalogue but not really qualifying as miniatures, they are just small pieces. But probably the smallest surface decorated pieces extant.

[Frank]

Oohh, sorry Mary took a while to work out the list. Bowls and ashtrays look good with minis but are fairly common and were just small items.

I suspect the reason you get them cheap is people still do not realise how small the circle of Monart collectors really is and just how rare the glass is. I really do think the number of good miniature vases will only number in dozens. Even Bernard was shocked a few years ago when learned that Monart was wholly free-blown - he had not thought it possible for even the 1920/30's.

Once the US collectors really cotton on, it will all but vanish from eBay. Sadly I have had to let most of mine go already - but that's life. As some compensation I probably have the best collection of Moncrieff glass  just no one else seems to collect it, apart from the target balls of course.

[millarart]

I suppose a really good unusal shaped minature in good colourway could be worth 300 pounds +, it really is up to the buyer what they are willing to pay for them, but now because its apparent that they are rare and do not come along very much i would say that they must be in the price bracket of 200 to maybe even 400 pounds :shock: , im not too sure about what price they would or could reach on Ebay as prices on there seems to be low most of the time compared to what auction houses make for Ysart glass, though saying that pin dishes in nice and rare colourways do seem to make good money on Ebay, it will be interesting to see what happens when a minature comes up for sale now :lol:
                         Gary
   what about owners of minatures posting pictures on here so that we can see/ enjoy and also get an idea of amounts that could be out there :D
                                   Gary

[MHJ02]

I think Gary's idea is good and I'd be willing to supply photos.   I suppose you'd need a dedicated folder first to place them.   I'd probably need help putting the photos on, not very good with that side of it... :oops:    

I noted with interest Frank your comment about the miniature RG at 95 mm, I've just bought one at 104 mm, so doesn't quite fall within the criteria - and yes, I paid a very large sum of money for it, but worth every penny as it has so many fantastic colours.

Regards - Mary

[Frank]

I'd say 104mm (4 inches) fits the upper limit as Monart was nominally inches and RG is an exquisite shape for a miniature:

(http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Images/RG.jpg)

My guidelines are not hard and fast. There will be items that slip just outside the guidelines, as well as the small items and bowls that can complement a miniature vases collection. My point in the list is that there is a group of vases that are miniature and, unlike most Monart, not really practical for use.

[luckyslap]

Interesting to read the views about miniatures. I have added some pictures of my RG Frank with it's non catalogue label of RG IX and measuring  104mm same as Mary's. I take it the one you measured at 95mm would have been a non catalogue X if the 3/4" per size reduction is accurate? Is the 95mm the smallest or is a smaller one lurking out there?
Sorry Mary you can't have the pair as you can't throw me enough money for it.
I also show a cloisonne miniature in a Monart EA variant shape but probably Vasart, at 95mm Frank. I'm sure not a regular production piece but miniature just the same.
I have also shown a nice little TF which not strictly miniature is only 2.5" in height.
There are other probably a few other shapes which conform to "miniature" status but not mentioned on the list eg I have a Shape N in colourway 42 at 95mm. I would imagine unless people come forward with examples there will never be an accurate list.  
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3401
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3400
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3399

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3398
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3397

Keith

[Frank]

Thanks for that Keith, I have updated the above list to include the N and RG size. I have also updated the online catalogues with those two.

I will only add the size code when a labelled example is given. Where an unlabelled piece is measured, I always use the ? for size code.

RG sizes look a bit odd now. I use nominal metric conversions but for RG I put the 104 instead of 100 that I usually use for 4 inches. There is no value in exact measurements, as a rule, as I find a variation of quarter an inch not uncommon with labelled pieces. However beacuse it fits into a group of measured items I decided to leave it at the 104mm for now.

Does your TF conform to size IX 5.5 inches diameter?

The EA is fascinating as it not a Vasart shape that is listed yet, have you compared it Vasart cloisonnes? I agree it looks likely Vasart. Can you send me some larger pics. Others are shown here:
http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/YsartSpecial2.htm
and here:
http://www.ysartglass.com/Pinup/YsartPinup200405.htm ( :oops: Time to catch up on the pin-ups)

[MHJ02]

Well I'll be darned, Keith - fancy you having an RG as well.   Has Gary sent you a photo of my RG?  If yours cost as much as I've just paid out for mine, don't think I could afford another one!!!!!    :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  I'd include a photo of mine on this site - but can't get my head around how to do it.   I think the EA cloisonne is stunning, whether it's Monart or Vasart doesn't really matter, it's an exciting piece.

The miniature GE and QC I have are both labelled - if you want photos, Frank, I'd have to e/mail them to you.

I hope other Monart collectors will read this thread and feel the urge to contribute.

Regards
Mary

[Frank]

If the labels are codes not in the catalogue... yes please. I just need to see the labels, you can also post in the ysart gallery.

http://www.ysartglass.com/gallery/index.php not had much use yet

[luckyslap]

Yes the TF is 5.5"dia Frank and I will send you pictures of the cloisonne as soon as I can.
Mary, I did buy my RG a few years ago so I am pleased to see there has been a five fold increase in price, yipeeee!!!
It's funny what you find when you least expect it. I looked at my TB and discovered it is a non catalogue sized label and is just under 3.25"in height. Also my GE size XII has a colourway 397 (that's what I think it is)
I will have to look over all my labelled pieces now and check the catalogue!!
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3403
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3402
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3405
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3404
Keith

[Frank]

I will have to look over all my labelled pieces now and check the catalogue!!

Please do, everyone else too...

Also for this page http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/PageLabel.htm  :D  :D  :D please