Author Topic: Where are the Monart miniatures?  (Read 6214 times)

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Offline Frank

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Where are the Monart miniatures?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2006, 02:32:35 PM »
Thanks for that Keith, I have updated the above list to include the N and RG size. I have also updated the online catalogues with those two.

I will only add the size code when a labelled example is given. Where an unlabelled piece is measured, I always use the ? for size code.

RG sizes look a bit odd now. I use nominal metric conversions but for RG I put the 104 instead of 100 that I usually use for 4 inches. There is no value in exact measurements, as a rule, as I find a variation of quarter an inch not uncommon with labelled pieces. However beacuse it fits into a group of measured items I decided to leave it at the 104mm for now.

Does your TF conform to size IX 5.5 inches diameter?

The EA is fascinating as it not a Vasart shape that is listed yet, have you compared it Vasart cloisonnes? I agree it looks likely Vasart. Can you send me some larger pics. Others are shown here:
http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/YsartSpecial2.htm
and here:
http://www.ysartglass.com/Pinup/YsartPinup200405.htm ( :oops: Time to catch up on the pin-ups)
Frank A.
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Offline MHJ02

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Monart Miniatures
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2006, 03:08:09 PM »
Well I'll be darned, Keith - fancy you having an RG as well.   Has Gary sent you a photo of my RG?  If yours cost as much as I've just paid out for mine, don't think I could afford another one!!!!!    :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  I'd include a photo of mine on this site - but can't get my head around how to do it.   I think the EA cloisonne is stunning, whether it's Monart or Vasart doesn't really matter, it's an exciting piece.

The miniature GE and QC I have are both labelled - if you want photos, Frank, I'd have to e/mail them to you.

I hope other Monart collectors will read this thread and feel the urge to contribute.

Regards
Mary


Offline Frank

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Where are the Monart miniatures?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2006, 04:17:40 PM »
If the labels are codes not in the catalogue... yes please. I just need to see the labels, you can also post in the ysart gallery.

http://www.ysartglass.com/gallery/index.php not had much use yet 8)
Frank A.
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Offline luckyslap

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Where are the Monart miniatures?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2006, 05:50:22 PM »
Yes the TF is 5.5"dia Frank and I will send you pictures of the cloisonne as soon as I can.
Mary, I did buy my RG a few years ago so I am pleased to see there has been a five fold increase in price, yipeeee!!!
It's funny what you find when you least expect it. I looked at my TB and discovered it is a non catalogue sized label and is just under 3.25"in height. Also my GE size XII has a colourway 397 (that's what I think it is)
I will have to look over all my labelled pieces now and check the catalogue!!
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3403
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3402
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3405
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3404
Keith
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Offline Frank

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Where are the Monart miniatures?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2006, 10:50:58 PM »
Quote from: "luckyslap"

I will have to look over all my labelled pieces now and check the catalogue!!


Please do, everyone else too...

Also for this page http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/PageLabel.htm  :D  :D  :D please
Frank A.
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Offline MHJ02

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Monart Miniatures
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2006, 01:30:08 PM »
Hi Frank

I've worked out how to use the Glass site so will up-load some photos/labels.  I'll also include photos of some pieces with labels that you don't seem to have.   It might take me a little while whilst I get my head around how to file/displays the items    :roll:  :!:  :!:


Offline nigel benson

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Where are the Monart miniatures?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2006, 10:04:11 PM »
Hello Everyone,

I began reading this thread before going off to do the Cambridge Glass Fair. Now that I have had a chance to update myself I have to say that I am still confused by the suggested size of 100mm being the qualification for a Monart miniature.

Firstly, Monart was made in Scotland during a time that inches prevailed as a unit of measurement, so surely it would be more correct to use the original unit of manufacture? This would have the advantage of not having tiny increments of 1mm to take into account, helping to avoid confusion. I am also with Bernard on this when he suggests that the original unit of production should be used, whatever the country, with the alternative placed in brackets (whichever that might be).

I would value clarification on these points - especially as I have a vase for sale that is less than 4" high, and have had for some time and it has been consistently ignored by Monart collectors as being a potential miniature.

I am also confused as I cannot understand whether this discussion is referring to the samples that were taken around by the 'sales reps', or is an entirely different one about a nominal suggested size that can be used to define what is a miniature?

I have compared a 2 3/4" vase with an equivalent 4" vase and there is a huge difference in scale between the two. Does that therefore mean we should include both sizes - or is it wishful thinking that a 4" (or less) item is in fact a Monart miniature?? I have always believed that 3" and below was the definition of a Monart 'sample', and therefore a miniature.

As for bowls being included or not, I totally concur about excluding pin dishes (shape Y), but how many really small shape O's has anyone seen for example? I am aware of two, both of which I have always considered to be samples (therefore miniatures), particularly since they are in scale with the vases of 3" and below. By-the-by bowls necessarily have to have a larger diameter than 3" as there seems to be a natural correlation of scale when that is taken into account.

I will try to post a photo that I hope will interest you all :)

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3437

Hooray success :D  

Nigel


Offline Frank

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Where are the Monart miniatures?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2006, 11:48:01 PM »
We are talking production sizes and as Monart sizes are arbitrary it does not really matter if you use metric or imperial. I generally prefer metric for general discussion and most people that contact me tend to give metric measurement these days. For the catalogues I do give the old sizes with a standardised approximation in metric alongside.

Who were these sales reps? The only 'Sales rep' pieces I ever saw were fakes. They were not very successful with possibly no more than 4 or 5 outlets in the entire UK! Or do you know something else Nigel?

As I clearly stated the whole concept of miniature is arbitrary and this thread is possibly creating that definition where none existed before. No reason why not and it has certainly stimulated interesting discussions.
Frank A.
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Offline luckyslap

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Where are the Monart miniatures?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2006, 01:03:32 PM »
Hi Nigel,
Good to hear your comments which were interesting as ever. However can you clarify what you mean by a really small Shape O? Is this one smaller in diameter than Size XI (3.75")?
I liked the display in your photograph but the picture quality was lacking a bit as I couldn't make out any of the price labels :?  :?  :wink:

Keith
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Offline nigel benson

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Where are the Monart miniatures?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2006, 01:19:31 PM »
Hi All,

The purpose of my last post was to engender discussion about something that seems to have just been stated at the beginning of the thread.

“Since I started collecting Monart, I have always hunted out the miniature vases. Anything under 100mm high. “

Reading this thread it would appear that folk are accepting the use of 4” (100mm) as the definition and generally discussing what they own, not the definition of a miniature.

Having re-read the thread I seem to have missed your statement about the concept being arbitory Frank, perhaps you would be kind enough to point it out for this particular thick ‘un?

It has long been believed that there were small wooden suitcases taken to retailers with samples housed in compartments, indeed I understand that one of the suitcases used is known to exist up in Scotland. I therefore referred to ‘sales reps’ and put that title in parenthesis to indicate my loose use of the term.

In other areas of the antique world it would not be acceptable to have a range of different sizes as miniature – it would be the smallest - 4” (100mm), is not generally regarded as miniature in my experience. Try looking at Ruskin or Moorcroft and suggesting 4” (100mm) as a miniature, for instance.

I asked a collector to help out with the illustrations, not having a 4” (100mm) example of Monart to hand it was substituted with Vasart. I have now been supplied with a second photo:

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3446

You will note that the larger pieces are all 4” (100mm) high, whether Monart or Vasart, whereas the shape SA in the middle is 2 3/8” (60mm) high. The sense of size, and therefore scale, between the two seems self-explanatory, moreover the 4” (100mm) represents two sizes above the smallest in Monart terms. See the previous picture for the red, black and aventurine shape C example for the intermediate size.

I cannot believe that Monart is the exception in the antique world where anything but the smallest item made by a company might be considered as miniature. How is it possible to allow three size increments ALL to be miniature? Surely one’s reaction on being confronted by the item should be “WOW!! That’s tiny.” not, “Oh, that’s small.”?

I'm afraid I have never subscribed to Vasart pieces of 4" (100mm) as being miniature :(  They are production ware that was produced in large numbers for a particular market and are small versions of larger items on the whole.  Unless you include the small surface decorated baskets, I cannot think of a Vasart piece that could be considered in the catagory of miniature in the same way that the antique or decorative arts world would :cry:

I felt that I had to enter this discussion, if only as devil's advocate, but unfortunately I will not be able to continue as I am about to go off for 7 - 10 days. I look forward with interest to reading people's comments when I return.

Nigel

 

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