Author Topic: Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?  (Read 3222 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline chopin-liszt

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 8337
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2005, 09:52:41 AM »
Hello Javier,
"Sotheby's Concise Encyclopedia of Glass" (eds. David Battie and Simon Cottle, 1997) describe "pate-de-verre" in the glossary as:-
"French, "glass paste". Ancient technique, revived in France during the second half of the 19th century, of melting in a mould ground glass, to which was added a fluxing medium and colouring agent (this was either powdered, coloured glass or metallic oxide)".
As nobody else has commented on this it may well be that I'm completely off the track as far as this piece is concerned! The most famous makers of "pate-de-verre" that I can think of are Gabriel d'Argy Rousseau and Daum, also Henri Cros and Francois-Emile Decorchement are illustrated in this book.
I've seen some modern pieces of "pate-de-verre" and the grains of glass used seen to be much coarser than these turn of the last century artists, so I have seen this technique can produce varying degrees of texture.
Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable can put me right as far as this piece is concerned! Cheers, Sue.
Cheers, Sue (M)

“All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” Friedrich Nietzsche


Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9396
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Gateway
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2005, 06:28:19 PM »
There are a LOT of glass artists using Pate de Verre. It is a relatively easy technique compared to most other techniques, except perhaps slumping and fusing.

Of course, there are also practitioners who have taken it to sophisticated levels. Argy-Rousseau was of course a master but I have seen many pieces in modern galleries that compete with him in every respect.
Frank A.
Please help preserve glass web-sites for posterity by donating to The Glass Study Association a non-profit organisation.
Scotland's Glass - Ysart Glass
Glass Zoo - Glass Study.COM
Commercial Czech


Offline svazzo

  • SVAZZO
  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 773
  • Gender: Male
    • www.SVAZZO.com
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2005, 11:52:30 PM »
Hi Frank and Sue!
I did a few searches online for "pate-de-verre" and found most of the topics that came back were of new artists selling bowls or jewlery. I did find 2 photos of Daum vases that were from the 30's but they looked nothing like my bowl. They were very structured and sectioned, from the molds they were made from. Probably many molds used for 1 piece.  
Also, I do not think that the process, which was described by Sue, would make bubbles like the ones in my bowl. Am I correct in saying that, or would a chemical reaction cause the particles to bubble up like that?
Believe me, I am no chem expert and only did a search today, lol, but it seems unlikely to me that it is the same technique.

Javier
Offering Vintage and Antique Murano Glass • Free Shipping Worldwide!
www.SVAZZO.com


Offline paradisetrader

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 940
  • Gender: Male
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2005, 08:37:50 AM »
Javier, in any description of this piece, I belive "freeform(ed)" would be preferable to molded - and give a more precise indication of the irregular "free" form and nature of the piece. Also, as Ivo notes, it denotes much more hand work, which is generally seen as preferable.

The technique I dont get (yet) is kiln forming - my main question would be why ? (given that glass remains maleable for sufficient time after being removed from the kiln)

However I don't believe Javiers piece is Pate de Vere.
Pete


Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9396
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Gateway
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2005, 09:04:11 AM »
Quote from: "paradisetrader"
The technique I dont get (yet) is kiln forming - my main question would be why ? (given that glass remains maleable for sufficient time after being removed from the kiln)


Slumping: Take a piece of window glass you found on a skip, make it hot enough to soften and slump over whatever you put it on - it can be done with little mor than a blow-torch but you would use up a lot of gas cylinders, voila you are a glassmaker  :roll:  You can certainly make small pieces of Pate de verre jewelery with a blow torch. But the easiest for home work is lamp-work where you just bend and shape and fuse, maybe blow a little, rods of glass over a bunsen burner. These days finding a gas tap might be tough but you can get butane gas bunsens.


The main reason is it is a cheaper way to get started in a Glass Art vocation at it uses much lower temperatures and does not need the glass to actuallly melt, so cheaper kiln. You can make a shaping mould from plaster.

All you ever wanted to know:

http://www.warmglass.com/tutorial.htm
Frank A.
Please help preserve glass web-sites for posterity by donating to The Glass Study Association a non-profit organisation.
Scotland's Glass - Ysart Glass
Glass Zoo - Glass Study.COM
Commercial Czech

Offline svazzo

  • SVAZZO
  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 773
  • Gender: Male
    • www.SVAZZO.com
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2005, 06:22:40 AM »
Hello Peter,
From the last comments on page 1...

edit (2/3/05)
As for Free-Form or Mold-Made... When I refer to something Free-form I am talking about the shape of the piece, and not the way it was made. That would just be put into "hand-blown." For this piece, yes, it would be a free form shape, but not hand blown/pulled or slumped. The piece was clearly put into some kind of mold. If it was "slumped," I dont see how it can have the shape it has.
I still think it was made as Adam described earlier (page 1).

Also, we cant see the photo of your Pate de Vere piece. Mayeb you didnt close the link?

Frank - Thanks for the info on "slumping."

Javier
Offering Vintage and Antique Murano Glass • Free Shipping Worldwide!
www.SVAZZO.com

Offline paradisetrader

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 940
  • Gender: Male
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2005, 01:28:42 PM »
Kiln Forming: Thanks Frank
I knew about slumping ...so I thought ..I didnt realise it took place IN the kiln and it seems that's not necessarily the case ?
Does anyone know if those slumpers extrordinaire, the Hinggins of Chicago, slumped in or out of the kiln ?
Are there other ways of kiln forming ?

Pate de Verre - sorry about the link to my piece - dunno what happened there here it is fixed. http://tinypic.com/1iy7wn

Free Forming
If I inderstand glassmaker Adam's posting corectly, a mold may be used during the process but if the piece is finished off using free-forming techniques then it may still be rightly called free-formed ?

Javier
Re the bubbles I think that would have been done in the batch before any forming took place and we are back to pulegoso technique for that.
I don't think you piece was slumped either - I think we just got side tracked there.  From pictures of slumpted glass I've seen they usually have a wide rim. But I could be wrong.
Pete

Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9396
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Gateway
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2005, 03:10:47 PM »
Moulds can be used in two basically different ways in glassmaking:

  • To be able to make identical pieces. By mouth or machine blowing.
  • As tools to aid in the shaping of handblown glass.


All Monart and Vasart was free-formed. Dip-moulds were used to create variation in enamels marvered onto the glass. These resulted in striped decoration, twisting and rdipping resulted in contra direction striping. Other formers were also used, for example a spoked cartwheel type device - the open end of the shaped vase being pushed down on the spokes to create a waved edge effect.
Frank A.
Please help preserve glass web-sites for posterity by donating to The Glass Study Association a non-profit organisation.
Scotland's Glass - Ysart Glass
Glass Zoo - Glass Study.COM
Commercial Czech

Offline Ivo

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 7419
  • Gender: Male
    • old website
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2005, 03:47:39 PM »
here is a link to a picture of my favourite Päte-de-verre item.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29558&item=3753372268&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

Especially in France many antique dealers call everything (pressed, satinated, slag etc.) a "pâte-de-verre" because it sounds chic;  but PDV is an expensive technique with spectacular results.  
I.
Ivo
► BLUE HENRY ◄
 New Book: The Almost Forgotten Story of the Blue Glass Sputum Flask

all texts and pictures (c) Ivo Haanstra.

Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9396
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Gateway
Help with Frothy BBls Camouflage Bowl - ID?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2006, 02:55:42 PM »
Quote from: "Ivo"
Especially in France many antique dealers call everything (pressed, satinated, slag etc.) a "pâte-de-verre" because it sounds chic;  but PDV is an expensive technique with spectacular results.  


I am well aware of what Pâte-de-Verre is but continue to be confused by French retailer catalogues 1920's - 1950's which consistently use the term for various other types of glass.

Do we have anyone with an understanding of this usage, which must predate the chic use by French Antique dealers. Is it that the anglicised version is narrow but in French it is a broader term?
Frank A.
Please help preserve glass web-sites for posterity by donating to The Glass Study Association a non-profit organisation.
Scotland's Glass - Ysart Glass
Glass Zoo - Glass Study.COM
Commercial Czech

 

This Website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand


This Website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand