Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Roger H on December 11, 2011, 08:58:14 PM
-
In this weight there is a complex cane with 3 canes in the centre. I realize there are many configurations for these but have you seen one similar with three? Regards Roger.
-
***
Could we have a top view please, in order to comment? (It wouldn't be missing a cane in the outer ring, by any chance? It looks like a weight sold recently, that I assumed was a 1979/1980 Strathearn experimental.)
Alan
-
Yes it is the one you saw sell recently with the missing cane and blurred photo. I believe I have a low kbyte photo somewhere, hang on. Its a little bit of a problem for me taking 5 meg for ebay and 0.3 meg for this site and then locating them on my computer. Regards Roger.
-
The weight below is illustrated at top right of page 137 in Bob Hall's World Paperweights Millefiori & Lampwork book. I think this is the only example I have in my "Ysart-etc." collection that has a complex cane with a 3-cane central section [many 6-cane centrals being "alternate 3-and-3", but only this one 3-cane setup]. In the cane photo, the colourful 3-cane central is easily seen, as is the use of thin coloured rods as surrounds. Thin rods are also used in the structure of other complex canes in this weight.
The mix of a 3-cane group with simple outer canes is also seen in Roger's weight. In both of our weights, the canes are not all well set and in Roger's, some elements are clearly split or even missing altogether (probably due to "slippage" of side rods so they are unseen from the top view).
My weight has a central "JA" cane and I suspect that Roger's could be an unsigned example also made by Jack Allan. I do not know when my weight was made but it is most probably either Vasart Ltd. or early Perthshire Paperweights. The "very aerated" form and colour shade of the orange ground of Roger's weight is not like any of my orange-ground weights and this might add credence to a Vasart Ltd. weight as opposed to an Ysart Brothers period example.
However, Alan's thought of a late Strathearn experimental is interesting and in fact it could be possible, since such weights are known with Ysart (Salvador-type) canes and perhaps some could contain canes favoured by Jack Allan during his Vasart and Strathearn years.
-
Do you know, the more I look at this the less certain I know which way to go. The tint in the profile view is pretty well as it is,which seems an older than 50s glass. I do remember seeing a couple of strathearn experimental weights on the web about 6 months ago which denotes late 1970s I believe, and they looked similar to the outer canes of my weight. The PY possibility seems to diminish eh.
The orange ground is like a crunchie bar as it is peppered with air holes. I have found another photo with a base angle to it. Roger.
-
The PY possibility seems to diminish eh.
Who mentioned PY?
-
A little man in the back of my head (initially). Anyway I found those 2 strathearn experimentals but there are no "3 canes", the complete appearance seems triangularly blocky(cane formation wise) and the colours are weak. Thats not to say there were not others that are different to them. THe crunchie ground is a bit of an oddity isnt it, wonder what it tastes like. Roger :-\
-
So which single canes are not PY? Roger
-
OK, for my first surprise take a look at Alans website, at his for sale items reference 1865 and 01963. I see canes with 3 centre canes, what do you see? Roger over and out.
-
Roger, good cane spotting in Alan's website. :)
Hmm, when I said earlier ...... the only example I have in my "Ysart-etc." collection that has a complex cane with a 3-cane central section ...
... I had forgotten about some examples in a couple of Paul Ysart closepack weights for which I have not yet made a photographic extraction of each cane. [I'll claim getting older in my defence :spls: ]
The images below show macro focus versions of the canes in my weights that are identical to those Roger found. Also, to make the comparison easier for other readers, the links that follow are to Alan's pages that show the single enlarged version of each PY paperweight containing those canes:
http://www.pwts.co.uk/images-sale/1963w.jpg (green cane with 3-cane inner)
http://www.pwts.co.uk/images-sale/1865.jpg (complex cane with 3-cane inner)
So what does this mean? It shows that Paul Ysart definitely used a 3-cane motif as an inner section of at least two of his canes. However, the green cane is not a "complex cane" in the sense that it does not have multiple canes making up the outer layer. So it is not really a true comparison to the complex cane that is the subject of this thread.
The other cane is a good comparison and raises the question of whether Roger's "crunchy bar" orange-ground weight might have been made by Paul Ysart. I know what I think, but what do others say - and why?
-
***
Here are images of a Vasart paperweight with a 3-cane element.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_Vasart65top.jpg) (http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/?action=view¤t=Vasart65top.jpg) (http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_Vasart65side.jpg) (http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/?action=view¤t=Vasart65side.jpg)
Regarding Kev's question about Roger's weight, I think the base appearance is consistent with a Paul Ysart piece pre-Caithness. The glass looks to have a dark tinge, so could be Paul Ysart or Ysart Bros, maybe even Vasart. The canes could be 1930s Ysart - but canes get used well after the date they were made. The ground is unusual - either an experiment or an error; the missing cane and large bubble in the weight suggest a less careful rather than more careful maker. So I don't know who made it, but if I had to vote I would go for a failed experiment most likely by Paul Ysart.
Alan
-
Thats a very neat vasart eh. Gets interesting doesn't it, so its a maybe PY. We all must be aware of course that one swallow doesn't make a summer, any more than one cane makes a definite attribution. There is an all round reasonable conclusion that must be made, thats why I asked if any of the canes were not PY. Now take a look at Bernd Horsts site "Weights an things" and look at YSA 01026 for a bit more information on the subject. Thank you Roger.
-
***
Okay Roger - I give in. How do I find YSA 01026, as the weights are not listed by number, but by description? What has Bernd called it? And is it on the sale page or in the archive?
Incidentally, I have heard it said that Paul Ysart made maybe 70,000 paperweights in his lifetime. I wonder what the figure goes up to if we include the 'maybe' Ysarts? ;)
Alan
-
One of these days I'll learn how to copy and paste URLs on my iPad. Meanwhile if you bring up Weights and Things website and search for 01026, you'll find a scrambled Paul Ysart with a reversed PY cane. Is that the weight referred to?
Keith
-
Try this link
http://www.weights-n-things.com/en/scrambled-with-py-cane.html
-
Yes, sorry, forgot about the search criteria needing to be in descriptive mood. Its not until you get to the opened weight page then the stock number is there. It is the scramble with PY cane I was refering to. I cant do all these URLs and so on either. Roger (the limited).
PS///// And I wonder where they all are, these weights.
-
http://www.weights-n-things.com/en/scrambled-with-py-cane.html
-
***
Hi Keith
Many thanks - deciphered it. It is all about using a different language (eg Welsh, but in this case not ...Mae'n ddrwg genyf). You need to have just 'url' in the first bracket, and '/url' in the second to make the link function. And getting that information onscreen was a challenge - the intelligent software behind this Board kept turning the previous sentence into a hyperlink when I typed the correct code using square brackets. So you get:
http://www.weights-n-things.com/en/scrambled-with-py-cane.html (http://www.weights-n-things.com/en/scrambled-with-py-cane.html)
You can also use the form 'url='text'/url' (with square brackets rather than apostrophes) to get whatever words you want (http://www.weights-n-things.com/en/scrambled-with-py-cane.html) to shorten the link.
But getting back to the topic....it does have an orange bubbly ground.
Alan
-
Getting back to this one again ...
Roger, could you please provide individual closeup photos of:
- a couple of examples of each of the two whole canes in the main rings
- whatever is possible for the whole central cane
- a straight-on view of the pontil scar showing all of the stress lines
I would like to be able to see the detail of the individual canes that make up each complex cane as well as more detail of the whole canes themselves.
One problem I have with this weight is the central cane which does not look typically "Ysart" to me. But with a clearer image it might reveal something.
And, on the point of whether any of the canes are specifically Salvador Ysart, Paul Ysart, Vasart etc., that is something which is difficult to assess, with only three canes to look at. The main problem is that it is now known that a number of canes can be found in the work from "both sides" of the Ysart family (i.e. Paul / Salvador-Vasart). This indicates that various canes (similar to the ones in this weight) were most likely made in the pre-war years and even if one or the other Ysarts actually made them, they were used more widely.
-
Hello again, I've taken more photos and this is about as good as I can get them. Regards Roger. (The amateur photographer)
-
Thanks Roger. Latest photos are good.
At least one of the elements making up the complex cane forming the outer row is definitely "early Ysart" - the pink over white quatrefoil - and is something I have seen most often in several weights that I believe are Ysart Brothers period or perhaps pre-war. I suspect that the whole of that complex cane is an original "early Ysart". And the whole complex cane in the outer row is also likely to be of the same origin.
When I have had a more thorough search for detailed elements, I might be able to say something more specific. But for now, in style and setting both of those canes fit well within the range of so-called Salvador canes - not the best quality ones, nor the worst.
I will not rule out the finding of either of those canes in a Paul Ysart weight, but I think the chances are less likely than in Salvador / Ysart Brothers pieces.
The photos of the central cane show that there is splitting of parts of the cane elements (probably during the making of the weight). However, as a whole cane, it is certainly not one that I immediately recognise.
For me, the base finishing, especially the "cutting in" stress marks, is inconclusive. It's not "obviously" either one of Salvador or Paul.