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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: BJB on May 29, 2007, 04:42:07 PM

Title: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 29, 2007, 04:42:07 PM
Hi,

I have just got back from a very wet, windy, cold and expensive Swinderby Fair, but I did manage to get a couple of really nice pieces.

One of which is this

http://i16.tinypic.com/6cym7pk.jpg

It is engraved on the back, Michael Harris Malta 1/4

http://i7.tinypic.com/53tufq9.jpg

I have looked in my books at home (and nipped in the book tent at the fair  ;) ) but could find no reference  to anything like it

One other Isle of Wight piece is this paperweight with a moulded flower on top

http://i15.tinypic.com/6g3npzn.jpg

And this has me stumped as well.

Can anyone help?

Thanks,
Barbara
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Mosquito on May 29, 2007, 07:39:47 PM
The Michael Harris mark looks decidedly dodgy to me; certainly unlike any of the Harris signatures I've seen. I would also have guessed that the item would date from after Michael Harris left Mdina. Perhaps another ChrisM?
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Pip on May 29, 2007, 07:47:08 PM
Hi Steven, it's not a 'signature' as such I agree but I don't think it's a ChrisM - from what I've seen of his 'work' he used a hammer and chisel!  I'm wondering if this was some kind of presentation piece perhaps?
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 29, 2007, 08:54:16 PM
Hi Pip,

I would check your flower weight like mine because I have been told that it is not right so not only is the writing wrong the thing it is written on is wrong as well.

I wish could let you read all the conflicting things that have been sent I am so confused and upset that I have re-written the whole thing. To be honest I have considered throwing it away.

Two people have said that the weight is right, but the writing is machine done, and then I was told that Michael Harris/Mdina had nothing to do with the weight ie it can't be Mdina early or later, as nothing like it was produced.

Am really near to tears at the moment, as some of the comments have not been very nice at all.

Barbara
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Della on May 29, 2007, 09:07:20 PM

:hug:
Oh, Barabara. I am sitting here really feeling for you right now. Maybe it would be better for you to remove your listing and wait for Mark Hill to happen along. At least that way you won't be getting any unwanted emails.
Definitely don't throw it away!! At least not until you have more to go on.

Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 29, 2007, 09:17:51 PM
Hi Della,

I can take any amount of constuctive critisism and help, but to be called a liar, threatened with criminal proceedings because the description is not what they think it should be , and a con artist all in the space of three emails is really nasty.

I have 100% feedback and have never knowingly sold anything that is wrong.

Ron & Ann Wheeler, told me that the writing wasn't by Michael Harris but they said that they thought the weight itself was made after he left, so writing wrong weight right. So I changed that so that it read that the writing was wrong, machine made and not done by Michael Harris, then some one else said that not only was the writing machine made (which I knew) the weight was wrong as well.

By the time I had tried to rectify this, as these were helping me get at least something right, the other less informative emails, con artist, liar criminal et al. began to be delivered, but by members with posting ID's so I have no idea who might have sent them.

I am really confused as to what is what and who is right ( not about the writing but the weight itself)

Barbara
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Pip on May 29, 2007, 09:31:58 PM
Oh dear Barbara  :hug:

That's really not on at all - take absolutely no notice of anything horrible and report the abusive ones to eBay immediately.  Now with regard to the weight, I don't have one of these but I saw one posted on here recently and it is definitely Mdina and, if I remember rightly it was said to be a relatively unusual shape - so you can ignore anyone who says otherwise, I think Mark said he had one similar that was sitting on some papers in his office (I've tried to find the thread for you but to no avail).  I'm sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why Michael Harris' name is on there and I'm sure it's nothing to do with trying to pass it off as a signed piece.  This is why I queried the use of the word 'signature' to you in the other thread, I was rather worried you'd get the eBay glass 'police' on your back.

Anyway, don't worry, I'm sure it'll be sorted out.
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Della on May 29, 2007, 09:40:10 PM

I think this (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,9514.0.html) might be the post that you are referring to, Pip.
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Pip on May 29, 2007, 09:53:13 PM
Well done Della - yes that is the thread!  See Barbara, it IS Mdina and, according to Mark, relatively unusual so make sure you put that information BACK into your listing immediately - those facts were never in dispute as far as I was concerned anyway.  Now we just need to find out the reason for yours being engraved ...
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 29, 2007, 10:03:43 PM
Hi Pip and Della,

This is what the people at Isle of Wight Glass Studio wrote about the weight

"I can assure you that the signature is not real and is infact done using a machine or sand carved onto the surface this does not mean that it was not done by Michael Harris but also we think the actual piece may be wrong as well"

They also go on to say

"Hopefully this can be sorted out between ebay members and not go any further. Please could you ammend the description to state this. Sorry to be the one to contact you regarding this matter but unfortunately many of our collectors use ebay and many new collectors may not be up to speed with this sort of thing."

So I am afraid to put anything back in the description that relates to Harris or Mdina, and I have no idea what they are going to sort out amoung themselves, its really worried me as I listed it in good faith, and it seems that  I have upset just about everyone.

If Mark says its Mdina why am I being told by the Studio Glass people that it isn't?



Barbara
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Pip on May 29, 2007, 10:12:18 PM
Barbara, I really don't have much of an idea why the Isle of Wight people are contacting you anyway - you're not saying it's an IoW piece and their use of the word 'think' doesn't mean they know for sure - it certainly doesn't fill me with confidence in what they're saying either.

I've seen absolutely ridiculous items on eBay being mis-described as all sorts - saying this piece is Mdina is NOT the crime of the century and is based on discussions here amongst people who know what they're talking about - not some old Joe off a market stall who said he thought it might be.  I think their problem is in using the word 'signed' which, because of the rarity of Michael Harris signed items was bound to cause a bit of a stir.  IMO if you list this as a piece of Mdina (and point anyone who disagrees to the thread Della gave) but very clearly describe the engraving as being mechanically done, probably after Michael Harris' time I really don't see what the problem could be or how anyone could do anything.  That is what I would do in your situation.
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 29, 2007, 10:31:51 PM
Hi Pip,

Thats what I will do in the morning. I certainly did not say it was IOW at any time, and only put Michael Harris in the title because of the writing on the weight itself.

Will re-list it completly tomorrow under a new listing and new description.

Wish Michael Harris was here to ask personally.

Barbara
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 30, 2007, 06:55:03 AM
Hi Pip and Della,

Have revised the item in question after a nights sleep (sort of as it has played on my mind alot) and I hope it has cleared up all points raised, apart from why it was mechanically marked and by whom.

Thankyou very very much for all your help and support,

Barbara
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Max on May 30, 2007, 07:03:05 AM
Hey Barbara  :-*

Please don't let it get to you.  As far as I can see you've done nothing wrong, and I think it's outrageous that you've had those vile ebay messages.  There's a big difference between knowingly setting out to deceive and accidental misinformation.  Some collectors are just so blooming precious it makes my blood boil sometimes!

My personal action would have been to pull the auction entirely until I had more information on the item.  The engraving looks professional and I wonder if Pip might have been right in that it could be some kind of presentation piece?

Anyway Barbara, I'm sorry you've had such a crappy time with it.  You don't deserve it.  Chin up girl!   :hug:
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Della on May 30, 2007, 07:09:43 AM

Good morning Barbara,

I can only reiterate everything that Max has said, especially as I am a little at a loss for words over the whole situation.
:hug:
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: josordoni on May 30, 2007, 07:56:46 AM
Hi Barbara,
sorry to come so late to this - I've been away on family business so have only just got to read the new threads since my return.

I was so sorry to read that you have had these nasty problems,

I have had problems with having Michael Harris' name in the title before, although in this case it was a polite note from Ron and Anne to say that they thought that it was not a MH piece, I took his name out of both title and listing and all was ok, nobody else made a scene.  But then that was a signed Mdina piece, not a problem, only the dating was questionable.  I tend not to put any mention of Michael Harris in the title anymore as these seems to be contentious.

Otherwise, this seems to be very similar to the actions of the Clarice Cliff police  >:(

Nobody is perfect, nobody knows everything, and I do think that the self appointed police should find better things to do with themselves.  I would certainly pull the entire thing, let the people settle back into their seats and turn their attention to someone else and then relist in a few weeks time, with no mention of Michael Harris in the title itself. That seems to be what attracts their attention in the first place.

Mark Hill has said that he believes the piece itself to be good, I would link to that discussion specifically in the listing, saying "read more about this unusual piece which Mark Hill believes to be Mdina"or something, ( I usually link to Mark's site as well, so people can see his experience) and then keep your description of the engraving very factual, making no claims at all, simply saying that it exists.

Duck your head down below the parapet m'dear, and let the snipers go on their way...



Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: aa on May 30, 2007, 09:43:51 AM
You can never be sure without handling a piece how it has been engraved. Dominic Fonde, who is an engraver who happens to be in my studio today, and I have looked at the image for some time ( while we're waiting for a phone call!) and we think the engraving has most likely been done by hand. We are not quite sure what is meant by machine engraving, which is quite a high tech operation.

Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Frank on May 30, 2007, 11:00:47 AM
Dearie me! I agree the signature looks hand done, had it been by machine everything would be even more regular. Obviously by someone who is an accomplished engraver too.
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 30, 2007, 11:51:36 AM
 ???

The first piece is very definitely Mdina. It is very definitely not 1/4, as in 1 out of 4 total, because I've seen many more than 4 of these! It is a Michael Harris design, but I believe Mark has said that it's only the very pale ones, where the sea-urchin shape inside is made from the crizzle pattern, that were made while MH was still there. To my knowledge, they come in both blue and brown for a fairly short while after MH left.
I would happily state that it is Mdina, early, but post-Harris. I've not a clue where the "signature" came from, but it's definitely NOT right.

I'm clueless about the second paperweight. I'd send it to IoWSG and ask them. It looks a little like the "Iridacea" pattern, but I'm not a pw person, and do not know if pws were made with "bits on" like this one.
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Pip on May 30, 2007, 12:07:08 PM
In my opinion, whether the engraved name 'Michael Harris' was done by hand or otherwise I don't think it's been done to deceive - in other words, I don't think we're meant to believe it's a signature.  I think there must have been some other reason for it being there.
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Andy on May 30, 2007, 12:14:21 PM
Hi Barbara,
im so sorry to hear the problems youve had with this piece, I started the thread with the Blue ones,
they are both signed Mdina, to the base, definitely genuine, and i have seen a similar colour to your
one before on ebay, the engraving is strange, certainly not a signature, but as Pip said earlier, maybe
a reasonable and possibly interesting explanation for it, maybe a retailer added it? or someone had some
engraved for a gift? Who knows?  
They are nice pieces, my feeling is that they are quite early Mdina, maybe Michaels time in Malta,
although i think Mark Hills opinion was early 80s. It would be nice to pin it down.
I hope Mark pops in , maybe he could throw light on the engraving.
Anyway, best of luck, and dont let those >:D s get you down.
Andy :)
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 30, 2007, 05:02:25 PM
Hi All,

Thankyou very very much for all your support, you have got no idea what it has meant, I have never had such a dreadful time as yesterday all in a space of three hours. I had no idea that people could be so cruel and judgemental.

I did think about taking the listing off but that smacks a bit of letting them win, so I will let it run, and give it a long rest over the summer as I don't think it will sell.

Adam I did think it had been engraved as I have other pieces, wedding presents and the like, that have the same type of lettering and feel whan you run your fingers over them.

Sue, I never once mentioned IOW or anything in the listing and after this I don't think they will want to hear from me about the other one do you?

Just as a foot note I have had this email from the IOW Studio Glass people about the writing, make of it what you will!!

"Hi
Sorry I meant that it may of been done by Michael Harris but no guarantees. As I said the actual paperweight is a bit of an unknown."

So why then all the fuss and real upset on my part?


And once again, thakyou all so very much  :-*

Barbara


Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: MarkHill on May 31, 2007, 09:44:23 AM
Hi All,
Good HEAVENS! What an awful experience it sounds like you have had Barbara. I'm so sorry to hear that people can be so cruel and rude - especially over something like this. After all, children will not die! As everyone says, ignore them. Life's too short and if they want to go through it being miserable, wound up and vindictive, then poor them.
In my opinion, the weight is Mdina. As Sue says, I too have seen them authentically signed Mdina. I think it dates from after Michael was there, so post 1972. I do not know if he produced the design himself, but would think not. As I think I said in my last post on the wheel shaped weights, I reckon they're primarily 1980s, late 1970s at the earliest. I've also seen them with strong blue 'flowers'. However. I would always defer to Elizabeth and Tim at the studio if they feel differently.
As regards the signature, I have never seen this type before - skillful as it is. As far as I am aware, Mdina did not offer numbered limited editions during the 70s, 80s or 90s -- most particularly when Michael was there. Due to the way it is engraved, the style, and the fact that it is a numbered limited edition, I do not think the signature is original. Michael was a highly skilled and experienced diamond point (and other) engraver. All Mdina items I have seen that were signed by him with his name have been executed with a diamond point or similar. This includes the very, very few items I have seen with personal dedications, as gifts to friends. As I believe this pieces dates from after he left, I also don't understand why it would bear his name as Mr Said tends to suppress Michael's early input. I'm not trying to be rude, but just look at the company history on their website for an example. Later (post 1972) pieces, if signed with a name, tend to have swirling signatures that (as far as we know) are either Mr Said or Eric Dobson, Michael's business partner who ran Mdina for some years after Michael left and before Mr Said took over. So, in short, my opinion is that this is a 1970s-80s unmarked Mdina paperweight with a signature (skillfully) added by a third party at a later date in order to try and raise the value of the item. This is based on my experience and the thoughts above, but I could be wrong, and one thing I have learnt in this business is never to say never!
As regards the second piece, I think Sue is right, of course. I personally think this is the very early Isle of Wight Studio Glass 'Iridaceae' paperweight, that had a 3D trailed 'Iris' on it. It was produced in 1983 only, and can be seen as a line drawing on p141 of my book. It should be around 8.5cm in diameter. Of course, I will again defer to the studio, who I am hoping will would confirm my thoughts!!
I hope all of this helps.
I am in the midst of a move so won't have access to the internet to answer any questions my thoughts might raise until Sunday night at the earliest.
All the best,
Mark
www.markhillpublishing.com
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 31, 2007, 05:27:24 PM
Hi Mark,

Many thanks for your kind words and for looking up the information about the weight for me.

It certainly has open my eyes about how fanatical some collectors are, and how no one is ever given the benefit of the doubt.

The writing has been said to may/maynot have been executed by Michael Harris by the IOW glass studio folk.

Thankyou for helping me ID the other weight, no problems with that one with the label, as I am not too sure they would like to hear from me at the moment.

I hope that the move goes a lot more smoothly than the one ( and only as far as I am concerned) time we moved.

Barbara
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: aa on May 31, 2007, 05:59:18 PM
I have been wondering where the other three are, assuming there were four of these. And why four?  :-\ Where did this one come from Barbara?
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 31, 2007, 06:25:14 PM
Hi Adam,

It came from a stall where the sellers said they were slimming down their IOW and Mdina collection,the other paperweight came from them too.

They thought that it was maybe a proto type of 4 different weights, same shape but different middles, that Michael Harris had designed, then put his name to hence the engraved writing on the back and there would be three others with the same sort of markings on, but 2/4 etc.

I know at a fair most people can spin a good yarn, but I did think the weight looked OK, and the writing is in my mind and their words engraved ( not sand blasted as others have suggested but I am no expert) rather than a signature, which could deceive, made me kind of believe them.


Thats all I can add to it.

I didn't put any of that in the original listing as I couldn't prove it, and I also never mentioned IOW at all. I just put "Signed, Michael Harris" , which I now know was not the right thing to put, as he may have written it but not signed it.

Barbara




Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: aa on May 31, 2007, 07:53:16 PM
That's very interesting. I can't help thinking that there has to be a plausible explanation because the quality of the engraving seems unusually good against the average faked signature. Perhaps someone bought four for some kind of presentation and had them engraved? That's only one of a number of possible scenarios. The thing is editions of four are uncommon. Wouldn't a forger be more likely to put 1 of 50 for example? Btw meant to say how sorry I was to learn of the unpleasant reactions you had been getting.
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: BJB on May 31, 2007, 08:25:48 PM
Hi Adam,

That may be so, but why put Michael Harris's name on it rather than the person who gave it, and why Malta? Especially as it thought that Michael Harris had left before these were made. Its very confusing.


I think it may be one of those things that will never be gotton to the bottom of.

Barbara
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: RAY on June 01, 2007, 11:47:08 PM
here's my mdina and it's signed, i use it as a door stop

click image

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/th_Picture108.jpg) (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/Picture108.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/th_Picture103.jpg) (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/Picture103.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/th_Picture102.jpg) (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/Picture102.jpg)
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: Cathy B on June 02, 2007, 01:12:24 AM
Perhaps someone identified it, slightly wrongly, and then engraved it so that they wouldn't forget?

Oh, hang on, it's obvious. 1/4 is day/month. Someone had it engraved as an April Fool's Day joke just to confuse people. :D
Title: Re: Michael Harris 1 of 4 Signed Sculpture
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 06, 2007, 08:38:58 AM
 ;D >:D

That's probably the most plausible explanation yet!

I've seen many more than 4 of these with brown centres, although they are reasonably unusual, and certainly, very, very nice.