Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bidda on August 28, 2006, 01:48:06 AM

Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on August 28, 2006, 01:48:06 AM
Good day to you all. I've just found this forum and am looking forward to learning more and contributing where I might.

My first quesiton is regarding a simple, very small vase I've recently acquired. It stands approx. 9.5cm tall. I'll attach url's so you can have a look and maybe one or a few of you will be able to tell me something about it.
Thanks for taking the time to have a peek,

Bidda
http://www.schellers.org/ebay_images/galfrontfl.jpg
http://www.schellers.org/ebay_images/galsign.jpg
http://www.schellers.org/ebay_images/galbase.jpg
http://www.schellers.org/ebay_images/galtop.jpg
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 28, 2006, 08:31:50 AM
:D :D :D

Hello and welcome, Bidda.

My first impression of theis vase is contemporary Chinese reproduction of Galle-style. These are being produced in vast numbers and causing considerable controversy among collectors of glass!

My opinion is that if you like it as a decorative piece - some of them are wonderful, then there's nothing wrong with it.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Ivo on August 28, 2006, 09:26:59 AM
Hi Bidda, welcome on  board & good to see that you have mastered the art of photography, resizing and hosting without a single hiccup.

Your vase is a single layer Cameo of recent production and is most likely of Chinese provenance. The signature (do I see "Yall" ?) used on these is loosely based on one of the hundreds of variants of Gallé signatures. The other major source of cameo glass  "in the style of" Gallé is Romania, where many different signatures are used, sometimes preceded by the word "tip".

These used to be looked upon with outrage as forgeries with intent to defraud; genuine Gallé cameo vases would be in the region of 1,000 - 10,000 US$, while these modern lookalikes are valued at a few dozen US.  Few people nowadays are familiar with the real Gallé glass - which is only found in hushed auction rooms in France and well lit museum vitrines... Still a nice example of the technique!
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Frank on August 28, 2006, 09:38:41 AM
While on the subject, whatever happened to all the fake Gallé made in Japan that fooled the major auction houses for years until being uncovered in the 1980's. Wherever I look for info on fake Gallé only these more modern and less effective copies get a mention? I expect most of the Japanese ones are yet again being regarded as the real thing.
Title: Indications of Faux
Post by: bidda on August 28, 2006, 12:43:45 PM
Chopin,
can you tell me some of the issues that factor into the impression that it's Chinese as opposed to Romanian or even legitimate? I'd like to be able to identify some of these markers myself, someday :)

Bidda

Quote from: "chopin-liszt"
:D :D :D

Hello and welcome, Bidda.

My first impression of theis vase is contemporary Chinese reproduction of Galle-style. These are being produced in vast numbers and causing considerable controversy among collectors of glass!

My opinion is that if you like it as a decorative piece - some of them are wonderful, then there's nothing wrong with it.
Title: Romania vs. China vs. Japan
Post by: bidda on August 28, 2006, 01:10:53 PM
Ivo,
Thank you for your compliments on my photography, though I know I've still much to learn about the "art" of it.

Would a cameo still be considered one layer if the second color is, itself, multi-layered? The reddish pink floral pattern on this vase is cut at two to three levels in some areas so I'm a bit confused by that. Is "one layer" the same thing as "two color"? There are a couple of "leaves" on the vase that are cut in one layer but, most are at least two (not counting the ground) as are the flowers.

I know this "Yall" you speak of... rotten "expletive deleted", that. *grrr* This signature is certainly not that one. The "G" is nearly closed at the top with a curl at the bottom that crosses the, likewise curled at the left, "underline". The "a" has a squared top. The first "l" has a top stem to the left as does the second (though it's slightly higher and harder to see). Finally, the "e" is of the backward 3 variety with an accent mark as opposed to textbook lowercase and in no way resembles a "y" and there's no "tip".

I've looked at photos of, literally, thousands of chinese and romanian "galle-signed" pieces and have not seen any of several elements that this vase contains. For instance, the fact that it's got a ground and polished pontil, there appears to be carving or wheel marks especially near the lip of the piece, the base glass appears to have a somewhat mottled look similar to what I believe is called martele, the lip of the vase curls outward at the sides as I've never seen in a "tube-shaped" vase that's attributed to a reproduction and, lastly, it's diminutive stature. One rarely sees a repro that stands less than 15 cm tall, let alone under 10cm. Also, the pattern and color is one that I've seen repeated in a few different pieces of varying size and shape that are "positively" attributed to Emile Galle and NOT on Ebay ;)

In my vast review of every picture of Galle or supposed Galle that I have found online I've found only two that look nearly identical. One was upon the site of a high-end auction house (James D Julia) and the other was Mike Weedon's Antiques site.

...oops. Sorry for droning on like that  :oops:  I do find this subject very interesting and love learning more about the markers of quality glass regardless of it's maker.

Thanks to everyone who's already replied,

Bidda
Quote from: "Ivo"
Hi Bidda, welcome on  board & good to see that you have mastered the art of photography, resizing and hosting without a single hiccup.

Your vase is a single layer Cameo of recent production and is most likely of Chinese provenance. The signature (do I see "Yall" ?) used on these is loosely based on one of the hundreds of variants of Gallé signatures. The other major source of cameo glass  "in the style of" Gallé is Romania, where many different signatures are used, sometimes preceded by the word "tip".

These used to be looked upon with outrage as forgeries with intent to defraud; genuine Gallé cameo vases would be in the region of 1,000 - 10,000 US$, while these modern lookalikes are valued at a few dozen US.  Few people nowadays are familiar with the real Gallé glass - which is only found in hushed auction rooms in France and well lit museum vitrines... Still a nice example of the technique!
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on August 28, 2006, 01:15:17 PM
Frank,
do you know of any resources where one can view photos or learn about markers of the Japanese pieces? It would be very interesting to copare and contrast these with the accepted indicators of a genuine article. I believe one can learn as much about something by studying it's imitators as can be learned by the study of it alone.

Bidda

Quote from: "Frank"
While on the subject, whatever happened to all the fake Gallé made in Japan that fooled the major auction houses for years until being uncovered in the 1980's. Wherever I look for info on fake Gallé only these more modern and less effective copies get a mention? I expect most of the Japanese ones are yet again being regarded as the real thing.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Frank on August 28, 2006, 01:29:05 PM
Since the new repros appeared I have been hunting for info on the pre-internet fraud and can find nothing. It must have appeared in the press in the 1980's so perhaps a newspaper archive. My library lacks good Gallé books but I would expect them to detail it.

Cameo pieces are cased/flashed in one or more colours and either cut or etched to create the design.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Ivo on August 28, 2006, 07:06:57 PM
maybe you've thown a real one in to test the board - so may i suggest you take it to one of the reputable auction houses to look at as there is no substitute for handling the real thing.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on August 28, 2006, 07:59:31 PM
Ivo,
I didn't mean for my querry to be a trick or test but, I have found that many of these boards are very quick to shout, "witch" at anything that comes along, regardless of it's individual attributes. While I certainly understand that it would be irresponsible to proclaim a false piece as genuine, it muddies the collector's pool equally to proclaim the genuine piece as false. Of course, this is only the humble opinion of a semi-novice and can be disregarded without the slightest ill will :)

Thanks for having a look and considering my piece. While I most certainly do more than my share of homework, I really do appreciate the opinions of others that have more experience in this field of glass than I.

I'll take it to a reputable auction house, as you suggested, and let you all know if it's indeed genuine or faux. :) At the very least, you'll have a few more reference photos for your collection.

Thanks again,

Bidda
Quote from: "Ivo"
maybe you've thown a real one in to test the board - so may i suggest you take it to one of the reputable auction houses to look at as there is no substitute for handling the real thing.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Frank on August 28, 2006, 08:09:40 PM
I used to handle Gallé in the past and it is very tricky to tell the real from the better fakes in the flesh. It is not so much a case of shouting witch as an observation that yours looks well enough made to be genuine. Gallé still shows up in boot fairs and as most collectors today cannot handle it easy it is to presume a fake. No one expects a bargain of that magnitude but we have found a few on this board - in every case it did need a hands on check to confirm. There is only so much that can be done from pictures.

The Tip Gallé are very good and not cheap but once they get onto the second hand market can become very cheap. eBay is a good source of fakes for most of the major French makers and many have burnt their fingers.

I recently bought a fake on eBay that is good enough to fool by image although I knew it was not right. Handling it, no one could doubt it to a fake - but as no one had bid I got it for opening price just in order to study in depth.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Della on August 28, 2006, 08:13:24 PM
Hi Bidda,
There are a few fake Galle signatures here (http://www.libertys.com/glass.htm) that you can look at.

There are a few tips on Galle fakes  here (http://www.chasenantiques.com/index.php?pid=4&ipid=131)

I am afraid that I would be unable to tell a fake from a repro, except for those that have the added "TIP" signature. I have never actually handled a Galle piece.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Frank on August 28, 2006, 09:08:18 PM
Well found Della. The second site has the most impressive Gallé vase I have ever seen (Elephants) http://www.chasenantiques.com/index.php?galleryID=571

Drool :mrgreen:
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on August 28, 2006, 09:40:35 PM
Frank,
That really is a beauty. That Chasen fellow gets his hands on quite a few lovely pieces... makes me wonder where he shops  :lol:
I contacted him about my piece but he wanted $100 for an opinion based on my online photos and description :shock: so... I passed.

Bidda
Quote from: "Frank"
Well found Della. The second site has the most impressive Gallé vase I have ever seen (Elephants) http://www.chasenantiques.com/index.php?galleryID=571

Drool :mrgreen:
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 29, 2006, 08:24:35 AM
:D :D :D

My impression that it was modern Chinese was based on the garish paucity of colours, and I have seen this on several examples. I have never seen real Galle in these colours.
However, the only real Galle I have seen has been in museums, in reference books, and at the Art Nouveau exhibition that was on in the V&A a few years ago. I have never handled any.
The stuff I've seen that is real, just SCREAMS quality. It's not something I can really identify, it just talks to me so loudly that I worry everybody else can hear it too! :oops: I can't tell from pictures.
The moth bowl is one I have a book picture of, but the reality was something else. I've seen loads of stuff in antique fairs etc. but it has never had any quality, I have always just assumed there were a lot of fakes!
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Frank on August 29, 2006, 01:26:31 PM
Gallé was still readily available at main and provincial auction to the 80's. Fakes abounded but so did the real. Mostly it was the duller cheaper pieces but some brightly coloured were made to and obviously these tended to be most popular. Chasen's prices are substantially more than in those days so clearly a great investment. Hopefully your piece turns out to be a good one, but if not, as Ivo says, it is still a good example of cameo glass.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on August 29, 2006, 03:33:24 PM
Chopin,
I definitely appreciate that there are a vast number of fakes out there and I'll not be certain as to the authenticity of this one until it's handled by a professional who can tell me one way or the other. Galle' did make several two-color pieces, usually in the smaller examples. Obviously, the more colors used, larger size and deeper levels of detail improves the value of a pieces because of the work that went into creating them... except, of course, in which cases miniatures are specifically sought for the scarcity. Pieces found in museums or in art books are going to be of the highest level of inticracy and workmanship :) and I think that lovers of this glass get accustomed to seeing those as the only "real" Galle'. Sadly, most of us will not be able to afford a genuine, museum quality Galle but, an authentic cabinet vase just might be within range.

My first picture was taken with a flash in an attempt to capture the level of detail in the flowers. I'm afraid, that self same flash distorted the quality of the colors as well so I can see how you came to your conclusions. I can tell you, though, that when I purchased this piece it was practically sight unseen as the single picture available was miserably blurry and practically no description was given except to attest to it's lack of damage or repair. The seller actually said that they had found no "makers marks". I just went with my gut. When it arrived, however, I was dumbfounded and my heart leapt. I just knew that I held something special. Despite it's diminutive stature, or perhaps due to it, I found the level of detail stunning (I do so wish I could properly capture this quality at 72ppi to share). There are finer examples, to be sure, but if this is indeed a genuine piece of Galle' artwork then I'm privileged to have it. At this point, though, it's all conjecture. Until I can have it handled and either confirmed or refuted, none of us will know for sure. If it turns out to be false, I'm only out a few bucks - no tragedy there. The knowledge I've gained from the research it's inspired is already worth much more than I paid for the piece. If, however, it turns out to be genuine... well... that's just exciting, isn't it? I look forward to having the truth about it and sharing that truth with you. I've got an appointment this weekend to have it seen. So, by Monday I'll be able to attest to it's authenticity or not.

Thanks,
Bidda
Quote from: "chopin-liszt"
:D :D :D

My impression that it was modern Chinese was based on the garish paucity of colours, and I have seen this on several examples. I have never seen real Galle in these colours.
However, the only real Galle I have seen has been in museums, in reference books, and at the Art Nouveau exhibition that was on in the V&A a few years ago. I have never handled any.
The stuff I've seen that is real, just SCREAMS quality. It's not something I can really identify, it just talks to me so loudly that I worry everybody else can hear it too! :oops: I can't tell from pictures.
The moth bowl is one I have a book picture of, but the reality was something else. I've seen loads of stuff in antique fairs etc. but it has never had any quality, I have always just assumed there were a lot of fakes!
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on August 29, 2006, 03:36:54 PM
Thanks, Frank :) *crossing my fingers*
Quote from: "Frank"
Gallé was still readily available at main and provincial auction to the 80's. Fakes abounded but so did the real. Mostly it was the duller cheaper pieces but some brightly coloured were made to and obviously these tended to be most popular. Chasen's prices are substantially more than in those days so clearly a great investment. Hopefully your piece turns out to be a good one, but if not, as Ivo says, it is still a good example of cameo glass.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Anne on August 29, 2006, 03:58:58 PM
Fingers crossed for you Bidda, good luck!
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: KevinH on August 29, 2006, 06:47:07 PM
For additional info:

As well as the Japanese, Romanian and Chinese examples of Galle-type items, a few years ago there was a maker in America who also produced all sorts of reproductions of French cameo wares. He was also considering producing repros of English cameo items, too!

Unfortunately, I have lost my details of that maker (perhpas it was all on one of my earlier computers and I neglected to make backup copies). However, he had a website which as well as showing his range, included direct copies of large extracts of text from books, all without reference to author or publication. At the time he sold via eBay and always headed his listings as "Repro ...". But he never marked the actual items in any way to show their status. That means there could well be lots of examples now in the secondary market which have no indication of their original production.

The colours he used were mostly the "typical" reds, oranges and yellows that are also seen in European and Chinese versions.

In response to an email question I sent him, he simply said something along the lines that all his items were clearly marked in the descriptions as repro. His website and eBay listings disappeared after a while.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on September 05, 2006, 02:53:31 AM
I saw the appraiser and he believes that my vase is authentic; not a reproduction.  :D He gave me a valuation at 15-20 times the amount paid. So, I'm quite pleased. Of course, now that I know how difficult a real Galle cameo is to come by, especially within my budget, I don't really want to part with it  :? Maybe I'll just enjoy it for a while longer before deciding :)
Thank you all for your input and opinions. I really learned a LOT from each of you and am grateful.

Bidda
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 05, 2006, 08:19:05 AM
:D 8) :D

Great news, Bidda! 8)  

Apologies for shouting "witch" automatically. :oops:

But you can obviously hear that screaming, when it's the real thing in your mitts! :twisted: Well done! :lol:
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on September 05, 2006, 05:57:51 PM
Absolutely no apology needed, Chopin :D A little scepticism is healthy and necessary, especially in this kind of collecting because, as we all know, cheats and fakes abound! I'm quite excited, though! I mean, I thought it was real. I FELT like it was real... even though, when I bought it I knew next to nothing about Galle. I'm so glad I went with my gut instinct and didn't chicken out! Yay! (Of course, my gut has steered me wrong before, but we're not going to count those times today; just enjoy this small success and grin like a dope.)

Best,

Bidda
Quote from: "chopin-liszt"
:D 8) :D

Great news, Bidda! 8)  

Apologies for shouting "witch" automatically. :oops:

But you can obviously hear that screaming, when it's the real thing in your mitts! :twisted: Well done! :lol:
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Frank on September 05, 2006, 07:42:16 PM
Congrats! Make it your pension fund, but keep an eye open for fashion collapse.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: bidda on September 05, 2006, 08:35:03 PM
Frank,
if this piece is my pension then I'm in SERIOUS trouble! It's about a decimal or four away from paying off my bills for years but, I'm still quite happy with it. Collapse? You mean that something fashionable right now might not be in a month... or vise versa? ;) Speaking of trends, has anyone else been watching Viking tobacciana lately? Criminey! They're going higher than vintage Murano in some cases!

Have a beautiful day!

Bidda
Quote from: "Frank"
Congrats! Make it your pension fund, but keep an eye open for fashion collapse.
Title: First Hello and a Question...
Post by: Frank on September 05, 2006, 10:22:53 PM
In ten years it could cover your bills for half a year :P