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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Baked_Beans on July 14, 2011, 02:28:46 PM

Title: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 14, 2011, 02:28:46 PM
I suspect this might be Whitefriars (nothing new there  :-[ ) . I would have posted it on WF.com but I find it easyer to post photos here and it might not be WF ! So appologies to WF.com (if it is) !. I think it might be quite an early example if it is .

There are two sets of bubbles. The outer set and an inner set. The inner set of bubbles (forming a ball shape) has the central, large, elongated bubble ballooning up from the centre top of the inner set  . It's very  difficult to see this in the photos because of the mass of bubbles . 4 1/4 inches tall & 3 1/2 inches (ish) wide.

I hope this is of interest and that it turns out to be WF !!  :X: Thanks very much for looking !
Title: Re: Possible , early, Whitefriars amber , controlled bubble dump/doorstop ?
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 14, 2011, 02:39:53 PM
I suspect the base would rule out WF
Title: Re: Possible , early, Whitefriars amber , controlled bubble dump/doorstop ?
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 14, 2011, 02:44:36 PM
Yes , I thought that too, but I'm thinking quite early , perhaps early 1930's or earlier ?
Title: Re: Possible , early, Whitefriars amber , controlled bubble dump/doorstop ?
Post by: tropdevin on July 14, 2011, 06:36:39 PM
***

I suggest checking out the Whitefriars catalogues on  Whitefriars catalogues (http://www.whitefriars.com/catalogues/). It looks to me like one of the many generic 'bubbles in coloured glass' designs, some of which can be attributed to Whitefriars, and many of which were made by other makers. But they are all equally attractive, in my opinion!

Alan
Title: Re: Possible , early, Whitefriars amber , controlled bubble dump/doorstop ?
Post by: vidrioguapo on July 14, 2011, 07:19:17 PM
I'd be surprised if this was Whitefriars, I don't "know" it at all and the colour is not a good  W/F Amber if you know what I mean
 :ac1:
Title: Re: Possible , early, Whitefriars amber , controlled bubble dump/doorstop ?
Post by: johnphilip on July 15, 2011, 05:52:18 AM
I go with the dont think so brigade ,the base is a no no plus colour .
Title: Re: Possible , early, Whitefriars amber , controlled bubble dump/doorstop ?
Post by: daveweight on July 15, 2011, 12:04:20 PM
To the best of my knowledge Whitefriars made only one large doorstop dump with a large elongated central bubble encased in a swirl, it was done it two colours black and blue and the shape looked nothing like this so I would say this weight is definitely not Whitefriars and it looks quite modern to me
Dave
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 15, 2011, 03:21:12 PM
Thanks All !

I have to thank you all so much for all your hugely helpfull advice !

It was the general shape & size and spacing of the bubbles with the feature of a  larger central bubble which prompted me to think down the Whitefriars line. Also the general 'Victorian Dump' look with the rough pontil scar which made me think it might be an early example along with the wear to the base and light overall scratching.

I totally agree with everyone ! I think it could well be quite modern , as the bubble design is almost too neat; also the amber colour looks a bit weak for Whitefriars as Emmi & John suggested  (ta !).  

It will make a nice door-stop though !

Thanks again !  Mike  :hi:



Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: chriscooper on July 15, 2011, 04:05:03 PM
Confused by the ID = Not a known Whitefriars, added at the end ?
Chris
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: KevinH on July 16, 2011, 10:15:21 AM
Why the confusion, Chris? It's what the consensus of opinion has stated.
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: chriscooper on July 16, 2011, 03:45:27 PM
Thought ID = was used when an item had been positively identified, the general consensus how I read it is it's not a Whitefriars weight so further confused by the 'Not a known Whitefriars' comment being added?
Maybe it's just me and how I read it anyone else confused?
Chris
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 16, 2011, 05:10:08 PM
To me not a known Whitefriars implies that it might possibly be an unknown Whitefriars.
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 16, 2011, 08:56:11 PM
I would like to leave a long-winded footnote if I may.

It could be possible to construct an argument in favour of a possibility that it is Whitefriars and it's good , I feel , to keep the possibility open even though proof would be very difficult . Unless it's a known example from another maker.

I've posted a shot of the dump with a couple of sea green paperweights (the bubble patterns and shape differ with the two sea greens). It just illustrates the similar general bubble sizes . Not much of an argument but it is possible to see the similarities.

Also there is a question of the age to the base. I've added a close shot of the base of the dump showing a good deal of age. This is in contrast to the base of a WF's c1970's ish ? doorstop which shows considerable scratching but less age.

Then there is the thought that Whitefriars changed the colour of their amber from the old amber illustrated with the beaker in the last photo. This is only thowing a wild theory into the equation (with no evidence what so ever), but perhaps in experimenting with a new amber colour  there was lots of amber glass around which wasn't quite the right colour so it was made into dumps . Perhaps there was no need to finish the base (as was the norm  with earlier Victorian dumps) .

So in keeping the question open rather than stating it definately  isn't Whitefriars could be the better option as it might prompt some other examples to come to light either in favour or against the idea.  :ooh:
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: johnphilip on July 16, 2011, 09:35:10 PM
  :hi: I have been interested in W/Fs for about thirty years and  handled thousands of pieces , been to loads of exhibitions and talks on W/Fs glass , i have a very large collection from the mid 1800s to the 1980s i have seen many different bases but yet to see a piece of W/Fs glass with a ground base , even on pieces out of the back door . jp
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 16, 2011, 10:34:12 PM
Hi John,

I'm not sure if it is ground.... only by age it seems. It's just looks like a mass of scratches to me.
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 17, 2011, 10:17:58 AM
Whitefriars' bases have the pontil mark finely ground out to give a circular mark, then they often have the base flattened by grounding and then it's all polished, as with your blue swirly weight. The amber weight has a sharp pontil mark and a very roughly ground base. Look at the base closely under a lens and then look at a known WF base. Every man and his dog has used controlled bubbles. I'm sorry but your paperweight has little to support an exclusively WF attribution.
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 17, 2011, 12:36:01 PM
Hi Christine,

Firstly I don't want to seem as if I'm questioning anyone's knowledge or expertise here and as always I'm so greatfull for all the feedback , especially with this one ! I agree with the general view that is highly unlikely that this is Whitefriars .

I wanted to illustrate how I came to ask the question here, even with the knowlege that Whitefriars glass is renound for its' polished pontil 'lenses' .

The wear and dulling to the base could have been caused by the dump being used as a doorstop on a stone or hardwood floor, there are hundreds of scratches of different lenghts going off in all different directions all over the base area . That is why I questioned the ground base argument. Many  old paperweights can show real  wear and dulling to the base having started life in a polished state.

It's all very interesting to me and I'm still on a long old learning curve with glass but it helps so much to be able to talk about some glass finds here  :t:

Thanks Mike.

 
       
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: chriscooper on July 17, 2011, 03:20:08 PM
Hi Mike, firstly I never initially commented on the weight because I thought enough had already been said and the general consensus was that it wasn't  so didn't really see any point and anyway I know nothing about paperweight in general.
Really I just added the comment because I thought it unnecessary to add ID = Not a known Whitefriars which I thought just added confusion? and even implies it could be a either an early piece, maybe uncatalogued or even a 'frigger' piece.
So really was just asking the moderator politely why the 'add on to the title and why it was just not left as an enquiry post till any further if any information came to light?
Anyway back to the weight, Whitefriars early amber, last part of the 19th / early 20th century was indeed a brown darker  amber, most of the catalogues available from the onwards show amber in the colour range which was known has gold amber from around 1920 which was Selium based and had a definite orange colour after the war the name appeared to change to golden amber till around 1962 when it appears to have been discontinued and replaced in 1969 by tangerine.
I have been handling/selling W/f for 10 years and all the pieces  I  have come across from the 1930' onwards are the orange shade of amber and have never come across a known/labelled piece resembling this colour/style weight.
Have stated many times never say never because things do crop up from time to time and bite and bite you on the ars*
My honest opinion though is loads of pieces all the time appear from the '30s onwards and I am sure a weight of this style would probably be available with a label on and I have never come across one so my opinion is pretty sure it isn't.
Hows that for 'long winded' apologies for having to read all that but I am well knon to 'go on a bit'
Cheers and good luck with your collecting, it's never been a better time to start.
Chris :sun:
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: johnphilip on July 18, 2011, 12:04:50 PM
There is one of their massive green doorstops on ebay now , not mine !!! Terry Khancat also has one . Dare i say they are quite rare .
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 18, 2011, 02:36:57 PM
WoW !!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Enormous-Whitefriars-Sea-Green-Door-Stop-/330589766098?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item4cf8af81d2

Makes mine look entirely puney !

Thanks too Chris ! I didn't know the step from old amber went to  golden amber ...I thought there was a less golden amber between the two ! Shows what I know !

The base on mine now really does look like it was ground and then a whole lot of extra wear on top....that's what threw me on this one  ::) !

Thanks so much ! Mike  :ho:
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: KevinH on July 18, 2011, 02:50:05 PM
So, are we all happy to say that Mike's dump weight is NOT Whitefriars?
If so, I will change the title once more.
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 24, 2011, 03:20:11 PM
Personally I feel it would be nice if an open mind could be kept on this one.

I've added a shot of the dump with a Golden Amber example of a paperweight. Clearly the dump is not Golden Amber  :o

The Golden Amber paperweight shows lots of wear (see last photo). If this was caused by using the weight on an oak desk then imagine what it would look like if used on a stone floor.

There is little catalogue information for the 1920's with Whitefriars Glass, also on page 228 of 'Whitefriars Glass' by Wendy Evans, Ross & Werner  it states ' The 1928 stock lists and workbook together show the following basic colours'....'Amber , Light Amber'  . Then the book on the next page indicates the colours recorded in the ' c1931 catalogue sheets are '....Golden Amber' with no mention of either Amber or Light Amber.

As I said above with the unpolished pontil scar , this could have been the norm with dumps of that period ; but I entirely agree it is highly unlikely for Whitefriars not to have polished the pontil , it is smooth though, so could have been heat polished.

Anyway , I've stated my case and I hope you can see my somewhat obtuse views on the matter   :ow:

Thanks again for all the feedback and help. Ta Mike.
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: WhatHo! on July 25, 2011, 02:48:10 PM
What Ho! Im in agreement with Emmi that the colour is not right for a catalogued colour. They did have a very early brown amber, 1900ish but they weren't churning out PW's then.

Count the bubbles around and see if there is the same amount as the known WF ones you have.
I must admit the controlled bubbles and the big bubble look WFish.

The base has been cracked off and doesn't have a ground pontil (which all WF PW's have) to me that says frigger.
And as for the colour it looks rather like Whitefriars Lighting Amber which was used in the 60's (for lamp shades which were blown into wire frames) and friggers are found in this colour.

I think possibly it could be, so if WF I would say Lighting Amber frigger, mid 60's.
I could be off the mark here but think that this is most likely if it is Whitefriars. Wolfie
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: johnphilip on July 25, 2011, 05:45:13 PM
I think you may have this one wrong Mr Wolf . :usd:
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: WhatHo! on July 25, 2011, 06:09:33 PM
There is a chance John  ;D but it is a possibility especially if the bubble count is right
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 25, 2011, 06:59:23 PM
Thanks Wolfie ,

Here is Stan's link to lighting amber.

http://www.whitefriars.com/bb_orig/viewtopic.php?t=2995

Was 'lighting amber' made from lead crystal ?   

I find colour ID's so,so difficult especally when thinly blown . Not at all certain about the colour of the dump and lighting amber !

The count sadly doesn't tie in with the paperweights . All the paperweights have 15 lines of bubbles each with 11 bubbles per line. The dump is made up of an inner set of bubbles 20 lines with six bubbles per line . The height of the inner set to 4.5 cm from the base. The outer set of bubbles also has 20 lines with 12 bubbles per line (double the inner number). 

It is the general look of the bubbles in the dump when seen with the WFs paperweights that just shouts WFs to me. Its difficult taking photos as the ones at the back are magnified and it all looks like a random mess but the general pattern and sizes all look the same.

Well, the colour is the key  ::)

Ta, Mike 
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: WhatHo! on July 25, 2011, 07:07:49 PM
What Ho! Lighting amber looks nothing like that when its thick, unfortunately I dont have any pics. Lighting amber is soda.
Im not liking the wrong bubble count though, although WF had different bubble moulds for pw's, ducks, vases etc
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 25, 2011, 07:52:23 PM
Ta Wolfie,

The dump is lead (far too heavy) so that rules that one out  :cry:

It's not looking good for WF :thud: but I will keep it as part of my bubbly collection , perhaps another example of this dump might pop up here on the GMB which would be great to see !

It has been a real joy for me to talk about it here.

Ta Mike.

 
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: johnphilip on July 26, 2011, 08:11:29 AM
I believe i saw a lamp in lighting pink on ebay this week , one of those blown into a black wire cage .
Title: Re: Early Whitefriars amber bubble dump/doorstop ? ID = Not a known Whitefriars
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 26, 2011, 03:51:47 PM
Oh yes !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Whitefriars-Art-Glass-Lighting-Pink-Metal-Lamp-Shade-/300578257622?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item45fbdc3ad6

Not the same as Stan's examples and looks entirely modern to me !

 :hi: