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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Germany => Topic started by: Sarahw on January 08, 2012, 12:24:37 AM

Title: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 08, 2012, 12:24:37 AM
Hello, I'm new here and also green as grass as a glass collector. Some of my Spode got smashed in a tragic plate rack accident and I have been looking to replace some of my losses. At a live auction house the other evening a small set of seven clear glass dishes (dinner sized plates) caught my attention...and my fancy. They looked as if they had rims made of ice. They were heavy, in perfect condition, and  of higher quality than I am used to seeing in pressed glass - very clear and clean.  

I cannot find any for sale ANYWHERE and next to no information about P&p plates.  The icy rim is "Alaska" ish but not a perfect match I don't think. A major replacements site had none on offer but did have a picture and a (possibly website internal) designation of the pattern as PEI11. Other than some coasters in the Alaska pattern (not identical) I saw no P&P plates at all anywhere. I assume from the mrk that they are from the late 60s forward, probably from the seventies - Perhaps later than that. Does anyone know anything about these plates?

I thought about them all evening as the parade of  chests and chairs and lamps went to hammer, and kept goin over to the table "just to look"  and finally could resist them no more -  the auctioneer noted a mark but coudl not identify it and I didn't recognize it either.

I did manage to identify the mark later on as the molded Janus-form P  (the curving loop over a conical stem) and in the process have been sucked into glassworld.  I LOVE the examples I found of p&p and even learned ( a very little)  bit about other glass makers and categories of glass as well.  Mission 1 - get the missing eighth plate

I paid $40 bucks for the seven plates Nd they were certainly worth it to me and I obviously wanted them more than anyone else present.  I'm wondering I'f that was retail ballpark, though; they don't appear to be ubiquitous but then there might be little demand.  I want them, though, and They will be present at my Titanic party in April.

I'd attach pictures but the buttons do not seem to work for me.
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 08, 2012, 06:14:02 PM
Here are some pictures - the plate, the mark and a larger version of the plate.   Apparently my problem before is that  there are no attachments possible if posting from an ipad.
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 14, 2012, 06:40:37 PM
Any tips on finding old catalogs of Peill and Putzler glass, or mark lexicons that might aid me in finding information about the plates pictured above? 

I've realized since that the plates are likely lead crystal.  They are so clear and so heavy.  The cut edges are smooth, and when held up to the light there is a prismatic effect.   

Assigning value is difficult, as I've not found any on the internet after many days of searching in several languages and venues.
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Anik R on January 14, 2012, 07:53:47 PM
Hello Sarah and welcome to the GMB. :)  

Very attractive plates, though I'm afraid I can't give you the information you're looking for.  Please be patient... someone will surely come along and point you in the right direction.

P.S.  Pamela has got a wonderful site which offers catalogues from many makers, including Peill.  Though your plates are not there, it's a great site to add to your favourites.  http://www.glas-musterbuch.de
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 16, 2012, 05:03:28 PM
A little information,  and a little more mystery to figure out.     A generic search for crystal plates eventually yielded more examples of this plate:
however,  they are listed as Tiffany and Co.'s "rock cut"  pattern.   The series is still made but in a limited number of pieces (no more plates),  and I cannot find reliable information about the true  introduction of the pattern to the Tiffany line. 

Many resellers note a "made in Germany" sticker on their items,  which is certainly consistent with a P&P connection.

I have seen the pattern attributed to Van Day Truex,  who was Tiffany's director of design during it's 60's heyday; he was largely responsible for shaping the update of Tiffany's aesthetic in china, crystal and flatware.  His mid century tenure was between 1955 and 1967;  another person took over the position for about a dozen years, and he was at the end of that time (1978) coaxed out of retirement to take over the position again - though he sought a replacement nearly right away-  he died in April 1979.

I have seen two casual sources claim this pattern was introduced in 1994 - one a ebay-type reseller and one poster in this forum in a 2008 post.  I actually don't know myself but tend to doubt this if Truex designed or commission the design of this pattern.   Perhaps certain pieces were introduced or the pattern re-introduced at that time?   I would welcome any information settling the question.

Another interesting point.  My Peill and Putzler marked plates have NO Tiffany mark.  Most resellers are quick to point out the rather conspicuous etched "Tiffany and Co."  mark on their "rock cut" wares.  There is no such mark on my plates, only the molded P&P mark in the image upthread.   Some do note a sticker with "made in Germany" but NONE ever note the molded P&P mark.  I have scoured what pictured of the underside of plates and cups their are, and have not detected the molded mark - though it might be there and the images simply not revealing.

So when WERE my plates made.  Did P&P sell them under its own label?  Were they a P&P design selected by Van Day Truex,  or did he create the design himself for Tiffany?     I certainly would like to know.  Any sliver of information on any point would be welcome.   
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 16, 2012, 05:07:30 PM
I am actually wondering,  if Truex did design this pattern,  himself or in collaboration with P&P designers, whether it might have had some influence on the 60s/70s German "ice glass" trend with organic forms.  The reverse might also be true - that the German designers simply had an aesthetic that Truex had some sympathy for,  and that he helped push this trend in America in his capacity as taste-maker.
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 16, 2012, 05:16:37 PM
Here is a link to the Replacements.com entry regarding the Tiffany rock-cut pattern:

http://search.replacements.com/texis/search/main.html?query=tiffany+rock+cut&pr=Meta_20120109&prox=page&rorder=500&rprox=500&rdfreq=0&rwfreq=0&rlead=1000&rdepth=0&sufs=1&order=ClientCount-d&mode=&cq=&jump=10&sk=.10.&dropXSL=html


They also list active manufacture as 1994 - forward,  but again I doubt this is correct if Truex is responsible for the design.
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 16, 2012, 05:44:44 PM
My impression was correct - that 1994 date is just flat wrong.   I still don't have the date of design or first manufacture,  but John Loring, Truex's  successor at Tiffany in the late seventies, wrote a book viewable in snippets in Google books called "The Tiffany Wedding"  in 1988, which references the "rock cut" pattern (apparently in pictured tablesettings)  and crediting Truex with its design  (although I'm still not sure if Truex was the one and only designer,  or a collaborator/commissioner/selector).
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: flying free on January 16, 2012, 06:40:51 PM
Sarah you're doing a sterling sleuthing job and there are some of us here listening   :)
I often find I start threads and add to them without a reply for a while, then someone will come along with some information a good while later.  So please don't be disheartened no one has added too much yet  :sun:
I think your plates are beautiful.  I'm not so sure about eating off glass plates, but using them as serving plates would be fab.
m
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 16, 2012, 09:20:05 PM
Hi ff -  I fell in love with the plates... and now Peill & Putzler in general.   The plates do make nice chargers for dessert plates. I think I'm going to serve maracarons or an Ice-bergy looking meringues on the plates at  my April Titanic gathering.  Cakes that look like  little up-ended ships would probably be going too far.  :)

With Google books searches (that are frustrating because most are just snippets of out of print books) I did manage to find a Tiffany listing of items available for purchase that pushes  Truex's  rock-cut pattern back to 1983. 

I tried to find some Tiffany blue books but haven't found any that have been scanned online.   When that failed I just decided to write Tiffany customer service for information on the pattern.   I don't know if they will answer.   I asked about the year of introduction,  and whether they were designed by Truex, and so forth.  I mentioned mine only have the German mark.
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: flying free on January 16, 2012, 10:16:56 PM
fingers crossed you get a reply  - be interesting to hear what they say.
btw the plate rack disaster sounds bad :-X  I remember someone here once saying their shelves of glass had collapsed - I live in fear especially since a huge antique mirror fell off our wall just before Christmas.
m
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 17, 2012, 04:17:12 PM
Well, this is what I get  for "contactin' Gus" at Tiffany:

Dear Mrs. [SarahW],

Thank you for contactin gus.

The Tiffany Archives can be reached as follows:

Tiffany Archives
Attn: Web Request
15 Sylvan Way
Parsippany, N.J. 07054

Telephone: (973)254-7201
Fax: (973)254-7205

If you are interested in further information about our Archive Services,
please visit the following URL:

http://www.tiffany.com/Service/faq.aspx?FAQ_CATEGORY=63

Please call our representatives if you require further assistance
or would like to place an order. They can be contacted at
1-800-843-3269.

Sincerely,
name overwritten, lets just call her Gus
Tiffany.com


Well good gravy I went to the archive site and the fee for asking "what year was the Rock-cut pattern introduced"  is announced as $1000, possibly more (Unless I am a scholar or journalist with a specific purpose and a note from my superior satisfying Tiffany). 

As you would expect I am not quite ready to shell out a grand for satisfaction of my curiosity.

I am planning to write a "hail mary" letter to the archive department asking for assistance anyway,  or maybe a fee commensurate with a ten-minute-combines look-up and email, but I will not be holding my breath and expect a snippy return to sender.
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 17, 2012, 04:25:13 PM
I guess you aren't the only one at your house flying free!  That's what my plates wanted too, I guess,  although based on evidence and guilty looks I think Spitty McGitty might have been climbing where she shouldn't. 
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 19, 2012, 08:36:14 PM
AHA!  In your face, Tiffany customer service/$1000 inquiry fee!    So I found purveyor of T. catalogs on Ebay, and inquired about any listing for rock-cut in the catalog.   The 1970-71  catalog has the full range (dessert bowls, plates, etc).  When my new catalog gets here,  I will scan it for posterity.

On a sadder but wiser note,  I snapped up two 12 inch service plates in Tiffany rock cut for my new collection.
They got to me intact, but they were 10 inch dinner plates.  Boo and NAY. So, I'm kind of disgruntled.   I would not have offered what I did for good condition dinner plates.  I hope the seller just sent me the wrong ones but I kind of think I will be stuck.  I  hope she at least adjusts the price  without being mean to me.  Item of interest for this thread- these also have no tiffany & co etched mark - but they do have a Peill and Putzler embossed mark!

They ARE in the  "good" condition advertised.   There is a big bubble flaw in one of the rims,  and they have lots of utensil marks and some clouding.   I will bet there is a forum heading here for clearing up/polishing up clouded crystal.   The rims are not clouded so I'm not quite sure of the diagnosis  and therefore uncertain of the best treatment.
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: Sarahw on January 19, 2012, 08:52:51 PM
The absence of a Tiffany mark is interesting to me,  as is the push-back of the Tiffany-date all the way back from 1994 to 1970-71,  which is a date that makes more sense if Truex is the designer (or commissioner).   That molded mark appears on earlier pieces of Peill and Putzler. 

I recall reading some opinions of Truex that he had to use the German factories to get the craftsmanship he wanted or something along those lines.   I believe he felt the real technical precision in factory produced glass was just not here in this country at least not in relative terms to the German stuff.    I never found any hard link between Peill &P. and Tiffany but there clearly is one.  My big question remains - did Truex design (in which case his influence permeates designs of the period at P&P) or did he commission/collaborate that design?     
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: flying free on January 20, 2012, 09:52:50 AM
Sarah sorry I can't help any further - and a big raspberry to Tiffany for asking such a huge sum to help with id - I know they have new glass to sell and that is their main focus of course....however, goodwill goes such a long way.  Who knows what you may have bought new from them had they been overly cooperative and helpful.
Wtih regards the misdescribed plates, I would have thought that sending them back would be appropriate - they have cloudy marks and they are the wrong size - so not as described.
m
Title: Re: Peill & Putzler Dinner plates - any info or history on these?
Post by: astrid on February 23, 2012, 07:28:17 AM
Hi Sarah, I'm also a Peill & Putzler enthousiast, though I only collect vases. Unfortunately P&P catalogues are nowhere to be found - believe me, I've tried. I've checked the one book I have on the company, but for the few pages that they show their products, none are devoted to plates of any kind. Vases and drinking glasses apparently where their main concern.

If your plate wasn't marked P&P I would have guessed it to be Nachtmann. Nachtmann did a lot of OEM work for US companies, and their design style favours this sort of plate (in crystal or glass) (just browse a current Nachtmann catalogue online and you'll see what I mean).

PS - If you ever get your hands on a P&P catalogue that features vases, no matter what age, please let me know. I'd love to have a scan.

Astrid