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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: John Smith on January 02, 2013, 08:43:01 PM

Title: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 02, 2013, 08:43:01 PM
Happy New Year To All...

Am confused (or even barking up the wrong tree perhaps)
Are Verlux & Verlys, one the same? Was Verlux glass produced in Luxembourg??? I know about the reason as to the Verlys name etc. but the Verlux thing has me confused.
Verlux, does seem to originate from France, but if its associated to Verlys, why the change of moulded mark? Any help/discussion/opinion about this would be most welcome. John
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Mosquito on January 03, 2013, 02:00:18 AM
Hi John,

Verlux and Verlys are not the same. Verlys was produced by Societee Holophane; some Verlys patterns were also sold under the name 'Des Hanots' in some markets.

Verlux is often thought to have been produced at Choisy-le-Roi/ Sevres, but I've seen no evidence for this. Cappa suggests a possible Etling link, however this is also unsubstantiated.

Steven   
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 03, 2013, 02:19:12 AM
Cheers Steven... Very interesting. I knew of the Societee Holophane association. I have say 15 pieces of Verlys. The Cappa suggestion is also intriguing, as I have heard Sabino being mentioned with Verlux pieces.
The Choisy-le-Roi area (including Sevres) I will look into, and as you say, Etling too, though numerous freelanced for Etling, even though their mainstay of glass production was at Choisy-le-Rois.
I have no firm evidence either, though I do feel that Verlys may have used glassworkers and designers based at Choisy-le-Rois... perhaps, though it cannot be substantiated and is just my own opinion.
My Verlux piece is simply marked in moulded script VERLUX. A sparrow mascot, which has an opalescence of very creamy yellow. Unlike my Etling items or Sevres, Sabino or indeed my Verlys glass...
I shall try to take some pics, together with the signature at some point.
Verlux however is not exactly that uncommon a name. Many items appear, but???
Many thanks to you... At the very least I can now rule out LUXEMBOURG as an association... John 
 
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 03, 2013, 02:22:30 AM
... Oh, just one other thing before I crash for my night. I have messaged a girl that I know who lives in Luxembourg. Her Grandfather worked at Verlys and designed several pieces. Her info, if she is able to help, I am sure will be of interest to us all. Thanks Steven. John
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 03, 2013, 01:31:52 PM
Hello Steven... I've heard back from my friend in Luxembourg, and she has confirmed the following, which though cannot be sacrosanct is still perhaps a good indicator. The Ver-Lys name info is well doccumented, but the Etling association less so. I guess that it is good enough for me until something more comes to light! Many thanks again. John

 “ My grandfather and is father worked in the glassmaking throughout their entire life (50 years for my grandfather...)  to Holophane, verrerie Les Andelys (ver-lys). Verlux  is the second signature ETLING…”
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Fuhrman Glass on January 03, 2013, 05:32:05 PM
In Victor Arwas' Book, Glass Art Nouveau to Art Deco, he has a section on Verlys and he says that Holphane set up a glassworks at Les Andelys, France in about 1920. They eventually imported some glassworkers from Bohemia, Czechoslovakia to help make art glass. They were under the name VERRERIE D'ANDELYS, which the they used the first and last syllables of each to make the name VERLYS. They at that time had a showroom in Paris at 156 boulevard Haussmann. The originals were free blown and then in the mid 1930's replaced with pressed molded glass. The Verlys line was produced from about 1933 to 1955 and was in transoarent clear, frosted, opalescent or coloured glass. Some were also produced in in a rich luminous opalescent glass. Holophane originally setup the factory to produce optical fresnel lenses and pressed glass for industrial use.
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 03, 2013, 06:53:33 PM
Absolutely Fuhrman Glass... The history of Verlys is also littered with contradictions, however it is my OWN belief and understanding that:

Verlys established itself in France c1931 as a part of the Societe Anonyme Holophane, Les Andelys, from which the factory took its name. 

In 1935 Verlys of America was created in a wholly owned subsidiary of Holophane Lighting Company, Inc, located in Newark, Ohio. Glassware was produced there from c1935 to c1951. Verlys of America purchased molds from Holphane Francaise, the French Verlys company.

It is only the signatures which can determine each factory. Verlys of America was the only company of the two to pen etch their signature. The French Verlys, was always signed in the mould and in one of three ways: A Verlys France; Verlys France, or Verlys Made in France.

Note that the word ‘France’ is always included in the signature, denoting country of origin.

Though Verlys America ceased operations c1951, A. H. Heisey Company leased some of the moulds from them in June c1955.

These were: Chrysanthemum, Pine Cone, Rose, Tassel, Thistle, Wild Duck and Water Lily bowls. The Gems Vase was also included, as were other patterns produced using etched crystal only. Heisey used these moulds for about 2 years, and then returned them to Verlys of America in c1957. None of the Heisey pieces were signed.

To add to the above history, The Fenton Art Glass Company bought all of the American Verlys Moulds in c1966. All of the pieces from these moulds will be signed or labelled Fenton…

Victor Arwas, was very much indeed a knowledgeable man, now sadly missed. I have spoken many times with his wife, who rightfully carries on with the Arwas dynasty of most things Art Deco... I have turend to her also about my M Model Lamp (please see my posting) and she, like many of us, rely upon people in France of today to assist and to establish with all manner of things.... FRENCH! 

None of us should caution the authors of our yesteryears. Most acted in the best of good faiths with the information that they had close at hand.... most of which was long before Google Search!!!

We should all of us be appalauded here at GMB for our own imput. Some wrong. Some right. But all of it very very helpful.  John
 
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Fuhrman Glass on January 03, 2013, 09:11:31 PM
as with many molds, they have ended up going many places and being used for many things. I used to own about 25,000 lb of numerous molds that i finally got tired of lugging around and sold them a couple of years ago, but some of them were sold piece meal to people all over the US. Companies were notorious for shipping molds to different locations and back again as some shops at some factories could get production from them when others could not. So much of it depended upon the mix of gaffers and handlers in each individual shop and what day of the week it was. I can attest to the fact that some days, some molds just would not work well and getting consistent glass quality is lot more difficult than most can ever imagine. Keeping a consistent flow of materials and controlling the moisture content of those materials and the times for melting under specific flames is very difficult. It can produce some extraordinary glass or some real crap. Doing it on a consistent basis is very difficult as in earlier times it was even more difficult to control the materials and their quality than now. Some formulas can go very different colors depending upon how long you reheat it and the varying flames in the glory holes.  Now we have some more sophisticated equipment that is available to assure consistency but few glass companies that I know of use the equipment as it is very costly. I highly respect what was created in the 1800's for those people had little control over things as we do today, not to mention their small understanding of the molecular changes that went into the annealing process.  It's remarkable we have such  a rich heritage of glass collections that is still with us.
I used to do a bit of business with the Holophane Corp. in the 70's and 80's but was never able to find anyone there who knew much of the history of the company. It has since gone thru several new corporate owners and I doubt there is much known about these early workings of the group.
I've seen a lot of companies shut down and many end up being totally bulldozed and buried so the owners don't have so many worries about chemical contaminations of the buildings and the soil around them. Most would qualify for "superfund" cleanup sights. It was scary how the chemicals were handled and what was disposed of and how. not to mention what they pumped into the atmosphere and local water supplies.
But it is all very interesting and gives us enjoyable paths to discover.
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 03, 2013, 10:44:08 PM
... Incredible. I love it. I too have worked with glass, mainly at the lamp using borosilicate but also as a freelance designer mould maker at the furnace. I am sure that one thing which governed the workers of our yesteryears, was their total disregard (or knoweldge of) health and safety issues. Much of the glass produced during their times, would be impossible to replicate today... URANIUM??? Arsenic??? as just two example additives... I am suffering from breathing problems, purely due to the chemical salts that I breathed in during the 1980s... in the name of my art. What Uranium or Arsenic and/or spraying metalic salts to create iridescence must have done to our glassworking ancestors, is beyond anybodys comprehension... but still they used it & worked with it as they battled to create what we now see today... Mould working is also a nightmare even at the best of times, but???  I take my hat off to you Fuhrmanglass, for I kind of know exactly where you are coming from.... By the way.. I don't suppose that you have any original R Laique Car Mascot moulds! (smile) I'll take them off your hands and pay for shipment, or even catch the next flight to collect! PLEEEEEEZE just let me know...  ;)
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Fuhrman Glass on January 04, 2013, 02:52:54 AM
no Lalique molds, but I do own a few pieces of Lalique from the 50's. Have frind whostillmowns some of the original Consolidated molds.
It never ceases to amaze me how inexpensive some of the Stuben, Lalique, Kralik,Loetz pieces are in comparisom to many modern studio pieces. I've been amaazed at how much some of even my stuff has sold for.
Good yellow and orange glass is getting difficult to make because of the cadmium involved and Neodymium is going thru the roof in price. Even stannous chloride used for most of the irridizing has gone from $5/lb to about $45/lb, not to mention the cost of silver and selenium these days. Glass making will change a lot in the next 10-15 years. Good fluoride opals can be very toxic to melt, but sure makes beautiful glass. get all of it while you can.
I hear you on the uranium as my local town has spent 100's of millions of dollars cleaning up our town from when they produced all the original atomic weapons here in WWII, IE, the Manhattan project. but still lots of nuclear waste coming here to be recycled.
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 04, 2013, 12:21:25 PM
... Yes, chemical prices have shot through the roof and so has the cost of issuing Health & Safety procedures. I guess that our rules & regulations are basically the same where this is concerned?  I took my equiment to India for a while, where access to additives was a breeze and costs were low.
It's my understanding, that USA and Cezchoslovakia, are the only countries today who are still using Uranium for some of their glass?, though of course we all hope under the strictest of working conditions! As for Lalique, I also have a few pre-war pieces and more from the mid-20th onwards. Much of which as you say is not as expensive as one would imagine, BUT, move onto the colours and the more desirable items and they are still worth their weights in gold. Many collectors of course will have some of the more "common" items and so there is still a huge demand for the rarer Lalique. The dynasty has long gone and the designers at Lalique today certainly do not rock my boat. They sure wouldn't be what they are without the historical name and the incredible designs of yesteryear. Much Loetz, Carder and Tiffany will still command high prices, and rightfully so too., as does the cameo glass of say Webb or Stephens & Williams... amazing glass it is.   I believe that Lalique is now owned by the Swiss??? And it is testimony that even today their most successful sales are from re-introductions of R Laliques incredible works, and their crystal recipe has not altered since its redevelopment by Marc...  I have not collected for profit. I collect what I like and what I can live with, as I suppose most collectors would agree, and personal interests change through the decades, as does fashionable design.  Each to their own (and I'll probably start a war here)  but most modern glass just doesn't do it for me. I appreciate the ways in which it is produced etc. but give me the older stuff any day... I think that we may be guilty of side-tracking here from the original question, but I find these discussions interesting... 
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 04, 2013, 12:52:41 PM
Quote
It's my understanding, that USA and Cezchoslovakia, are the only countries today who are still using Uranium for some of their glass?

You can use it in the UK if you get a licence and some people do/have (Adam Aaronson, Richard Golding)
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 04, 2013, 07:24:43 PM
Well, I'd certainly want more than just a licence, to go anywhere near the stuff, let alone work with it. I wonder how many of the population in Warickshire, are aware that they have uranium being used, right under their very noses, in the name of Art?  ;D  Tell me, do they fluoresce at night, like the Readybrek adds! (smile)
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 06, 2013, 01:21:58 PM
" You can use it in the UK if you get a licence and some people do/have (Adam Aaronson, Richard Golding) "

Hi Lustrousstone, I have received this message from Richard Golding this morning...

“ Morning John, Apart from a water jug set I made for an American Vaseline glass collector many years ago I haven't used uranium. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Richard. Sent from my iPhone "

It is very unlikely that any English glassworker today uses Uranium, unless it is under the most strick conditions within the fireld of science. It is also highly unlikely that Adam, would obtain licence to use Uranium oxide at his studio in Earls Court, to produce any of his freeblown works,  however I am waiting for his reply to me also. Small objects such as jewellery beads perhaps, still use Uranium oxide as a colourant, however these tiny objects are machine manufactured and again within safety-confined conditions, and to my knowledge not in the United Kingdom. John
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 06, 2013, 02:41:52 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Adam himself gave me that information in person. He had used it for animals if I remember rightly. And Richard Golding has just confirmed that he has used uranium (it was in 2006 to be exact). Uranium glass has also been used relatively recently  in Scotland. At the Scotland's Glass conference in Edinburgh in 2010 to celebrate 440 years of glassmaking one of the Edinburgh College of Art students provided a "troll" make of uranium glass as one of the auction items. Kate Williams is another example http://www.katewilliams.org.uk/gallery/powerstations.htm

We are talking depleted uranium http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf14.html
Quote
Health aspects of DU

Depleted uranium is not classified as a dangerous substance radiologically, though it is a potential hazard in large quantities, beyond what could conceivably be breathed. Its emissions are very low, since the half-life of U-238 is the same as the age of the Earth (4.5 billion years). There are no reputable reports of cancer or other negative health effects from radiation exposure to ingested or inhaled natural or depleted uranium, despite much study.

And the Japanese use it too http://inspir3d.net/2012/08/16/radioactive-uranium-glass-sculptures/
And in New Zealand http://www.artskulls.com/phosphorescent-skull/
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 06, 2013, 03:40:36 PM
I used uranium salts in a prcatical class at college, as well as quite routinely at work.
DU is not dangerous. The low-level radiation does not penetrate far or through much.
I'd be far happier surrounded by DU than stuck in the middle of a traffic jam surrounded by petrol fumes.  ;D
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 06, 2013, 04:53:08 PM
... with respect, I am not trying "to prove" anything, we are not arguing here,  just relaying the information at our disposal, for the good benefit of all. I am not suggesting for one moment that Uranium is used by the bucket load by all and sundry. It is true that uranium "glass" can be used and still is... I have used the glass myself as pre-produced soda glass rods, and yes it can probably still be purchased to create animals etc.,  as in this state it causes no threat, but to imagine for one moment that glass blower's knock up a batch in their studio, length and breadth of England, is simply not true, and you could apply for a "licence" until the cows come home and it would be refused... Let alone being able to purchase Uranium in its oxide form.... If you could find a supplier. My ORIGINAL post regarding this topic, suggested "that it was my understanding that USA and Czechoslovakia were the only countries who actively use/make/produce uranium glass today..."  I still believe that is the case and I am not trying to suggest anything else. URANIUM GLASS, is NOT the same as Uranium oxide... And that if you like, is my point. John 
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 06, 2013, 05:08:06 PM
The stuff being used by the students in Edinurgh was made in Japan.
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 06, 2013, 05:23:15 PM
I obviously failed to understand that you were talking about uranium oxide for use in glass. My statement regarding the licence was only in respect of the uranium glass.

Quote
URANIUM GLASS, is NOT the same as Uranium oxide
My chemistry degree has equipped me with at least that basic knowledge
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: John Smith on January 06, 2013, 06:36:14 PM
 :)  That was exactly my case in point.. Not the use of Uraium Glass as such, but the use of Uranium itself, and where. Anyway, we all be steering clear of this original post and going off on tangents. It most certainly is a healthy debate which should be continued, but has little to do with Verlux/Verlys.... perhaps?
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: aa on January 06, 2013, 08:41:54 PM
Good evening all, and Happy New Year!

Here is a link to the Gaffer Glass site. http://www.gafferglass.co.uk/technical/uranium.htm The technical info, downloadable as a pdf is worth reading and self explanatory.

Most glassmakers such as myself use pre-melted colours these days. The people who produce these colours used to be in Germany or what is now the Czech republic, but Gaffer Glass in New Zealand are perceived by many as the preeminent colour makers for artists. There are still some European suppliers, Kugler (Friedrich and Schreibler)and  Reichenbach, are notable. Ornela, unfortunately, closed a few years ago, but fortunately, I still have some stock of some of their rarer colours, including some uranium bearing colours.

So far as I am aware, there are no restrictions that limit the use of these colours as they have been pre-melted and to all intents and purposes the uranium is inert, (used in layman's terms and not as a scientific statement) once the colour has been pre-melted. (Nonetheless, when it is in granular form, as with other colours, care should be taken not to inhale or ingest).

While I can't speak for Richard Golding, I think it is safe to say that he uses the same kind of pre-melted colour.

I hope that this clarifies the position. Most people don't produce their own colours.

To an artist such as myself,  it is the colour that matters, not the chemical content, but that it is a personal opinion, which may not be shared by all.

Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 07, 2013, 10:57:01 AM
A healthy and happy new year to you Adam,!  :-*
Thank you so much for this clear and concise info - and I agree the colour itself is always of primary ( ;D ) importance - but uranium glass does do fascinating and interesting colour-y things in sunlight.
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: sph@ngw on January 07, 2013, 05:17:11 PM
Verrelux or verlux was a trade name used by BSN (Boussois Souchon Neuvesel), making bottles then Youghurt jars that became Danone youghurts and had a factory near Lyons making green , amber and smoke tableware machine made., called Verrelux.
A lot turns up on eBay, especially plates and serving bowls.
A certaine Antoine Ribaud was their Chairman. ( died 2002) see  ( but in French)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Riboud

Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: sph@ngw on January 07, 2013, 05:19:55 PM
Uranium stock, being radioactive has to be notified to a Governement department.
We stopped using it back in the 1990's.
it was used in yellow ashtrays for  Pernod etc.
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 07, 2013, 05:26:22 PM
Quote:

"Uranium stock, being radioactive has to be notified to a Governement department."

I hope this doesn't apply to folk with large collections of uranium glass!
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Anne Tique on August 10, 2015, 03:01:34 AM
As I came across this post where Etling and Verlux were mentioned, I just wanted to share my thought and finds on this subject.

I have done a little digging or quite some rather and  it took me a while... hence the late reply.

Cappa, as you all know, mentions in both of his volumes that Verlux relates to Etling. But as the French language can often be so subtle in its wording, you need to really pay attention, because often it's very suggestive.

And that is exactly the case here, because in his first edition, Cappa says that Verlux could be related to Etling because a pinecone patterned vase has a very similar pattern to a bowl (the square one I guess) by Verlux. If you're happy with that, then that's fine but personally, I find this a little vague and not evidential enough.

Hartmann mentioned on several occasions, at the SPIP and Verlys references, quote page 813 ' The establishment SPIP proposes art glass, Cristal and decorative objects made from different materials, in 1935 the department store SPIP officially registers at the Chambers of Commerce, the brands Verlux, SPIP and Vermer.
And also : 'The glassware Verlux was produced at Hollophane - Andelys, the brand SPIP with the subscription Tchechoslovaquie was imported (by Inwald) and the producer for Vermer is currently unknown (but due to style it could be Schneider or Daum).

Page 858 on Les verreries d'Andelys he mentions that 'the company starts producing décorative  pressed glass and lamps in the Lalique style. Verlux is produced for the proprietor of the SPIP establishment, Paris, Rue de la Grange-aux-Belles 39.'

Overall in his book, Hartmann refers to Cappa on several occasions, so he's read his views but ignores him on Verlux. In Cappa's second edition, he refers to himself in his own first edition, whereas Hartmann still ignores this suggestion.

The reference on SPIP from  Hartmann,  comes from the Commercial Syndicate Register for Ceramics and Glasswork, dating from 1930 and onwards.

It took me several hours, on the french online library Gallica to find out who this etablissement SPIP was, also where the Verlux name was registered, and I found it in the end.

SPIP was a department store, very much in the style of Sabino and Etling, and like so many others. It stands for Société Parisienne d'importation de Porcelaine. Why porcelain? Because that's what they started their business with and they expanded their range with glass, Chrystal, decorative objects and the likes as of 1935, after having been 5 years in business.

Also, for the brands Verlux, Vermer and SPIP, Hartmann refers to the 'le bulletin officiel de la propriété industrielle et commerciale Paris - 1886-.... the official report on industrial and commercial propriety and patent.

Personally, and these are just my thoughts, is that the theory suggested by Cappa, is exactly what it is...a myth that slowly made its way in because of Cappa whereas Hartmann ignores these and comes up with evidence that Cappa doesn't have. If Hartmann refers to both registers, then he must have consulted them.

Verlys, as we all know, was Hollophane's own trademark for decorative glass.

Underneath, you'll find a copy of the announcement for the establishment SPIP having been registered by proprietors Guerber et Broido, dating from the 1930 register.
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 10, 2015, 12:59:06 PM
Anne, thank-you so much for all this hard graft, teasing out who said what and how and in which context. :-*

This is a massive problem with books as opposed to academic, peer reviewed papers (not that they get it right all the time either  ::) )
Anybody can publish anything. A hinted suggestion or speculation spreads, then it becomes a "certainty" and another myth is born. >:(
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Anne Tique on August 10, 2015, 01:29:59 PM
Thank you Sue, that's really nice to hear.

To be honest, it took quite some time, several days actually ...adding things up, one fact leading to another, going through files etc etc   if things are not correct, then they should be put back in their place if possible. I'm not having a go at Mr Cappa  and his work ...it must have been a monster job  to write a book like his, as some of you well know, but if you're going to publish, then you need to get your facts right and be able to back up what you think is true ... well, in my opinion at least but maybe  that sounds a little harsh ...

Cappa made a suggestion, as you mentioned, which has been read a lot, but without being able to back his theory up ... whereas Hartmann says, I found my information at the Chambers of Commerce, in the files of 1930 and 1935.
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 10, 2015, 02:04:16 PM
I've had a lot of trouble myself, trying to work out what exactly is meant by some authors. Hints are given, sugggestions are made, sometimes, between one statement from one place, and another from another some other fact can be gleaned, from inbetween the two, but you can never be sure, until something else comes along to back it up or contradict it.

You can hope, you can keep the possibility open in your brain, but sometimes others just jump straight to the unconfirmed conclusion.

It helps to make life interesting! ;D
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: Anne Tique on August 10, 2015, 02:51:02 PM
Yes, I understand that, it does make life more interesting and makes us live, but it's just human nature I guess... we generally don't like uncertainties in life and prefer to have things 'set in stone' .. but I believe the best thing to do to achieve that, is trying to get back to the source.

There's this funny saying here in Belgium, that says that the only certainty in life you have... is the uncertainty in life. Meaning that anything can happen, at any time and you'll deal with it as it comes along, as every time something's always new and you can never know everything, and that can be applied to every situation in life.

Funny ones, the Belgians... very often surreal in their philosophy but I like that 'down to earth' attitude.

Better stop now, I'm starting to sound like I overdosed on Oprah Winfrey...
Title: Re: Verlux/Verlys Help please...
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 10, 2015, 03:43:36 PM
 ;D