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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Baked_Beans on September 08, 2012, 04:04:52 PM

Title: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 08, 2012, 04:04:52 PM
Well folks, just once in a very blue moon it is still possible to find Nailsea / Bristol glass in the Bristol area going for a song.  If I sell it (still undecided) I will donate a percentage to the charity concerned. There may have been fakes made of these at some point in time but I really do think this is a genuine example. I thought I would post as many photos as possible to show the detail . You can see the rim has a fold on one side and not on the other.....a real frigger if ever there was one ....a glassblower finding their feet . The pontil scar has been heat treated . It's such a rare find these days I just had to share it with you all .  :D
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 08, 2012, 04:06:41 PM
Lovely, thanks.
That is a hat with personality and a half!
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 08, 2012, 04:07:02 PM
even more photos .......

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 08, 2012, 04:07:54 PM
Last shot of the fire polished base......
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 08, 2012, 04:22:43 PM
Cheers Sue......it sure is  :o .....I'm so chuffed-to-bits ...found it today and I'm still recovering !
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: johnphilip on September 12, 2012, 07:34:05 AM
Hi Mike excuse my ignorance but what makes it Nailsea i had always thought Nailsea was striped glass ?
 I thought those hats were usually known as friggers .   DOHHHH JP
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on September 12, 2012, 07:45:21 AM
Well I didn't like to ask, but now JP has I'm popping my head above the parapet to also ask how this was determined please?
I thought Nailsea glass was full of little blobs of coloured glass like this
http://bottledigging.org.uk/Topic129946-12-1.aspx
But on scrolling down there is a dark green jug that doesn't appear to have any blobs in.  And how do you determine whether it really is from Nailsea or Bristol...I find this whole area very confusing :-\
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 12, 2012, 09:39:23 AM
It could be accurately described as coming into the category of being a frigger.
It's still a hat though.  ;D
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 12, 2012, 10:44:18 AM
I think the important thing to remember is that the Bristol glass industry (i.e., not window glass) didn't continue in any quantity long into the 19th century (there's something in Chance Expressions), so anything genuine is really pretty old. This looks more Victorian.

Pulled feather stuff can sometimes be Bristol, as can some (very little) enamelling.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: David E on September 13, 2012, 11:15:59 AM
Production of Nailsea glass did not continue after 1874, but the works were leased from the owners from about 1855:

Quote
From 1855, the works were leased to Samuel Bowen. ... he was bought out by James Hartley ... he later sold the works to Chance Brothers.
Chance Expressions, p.4

It is also worth noting that Nailsea was not in the main a producer of fancy items and friggers, but its core business was producing sheet glass (window glass). I have a lot more to include in Chance Reflections whenever that is published!

I'm no expert on Nailsea, and my 'expertise' is seriously limited as all my books on the subject are currently packed away (Margaret Thomas' book on the history of the works is one such), but it would be difficult to attribute this as Nailsea without a little more proof, as M and JP point out.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 13, 2012, 03:37:45 PM
I was rumaging in Rye, Sussex, this morning, and was reminded of this thread when I saw a glass bowler/top hat, which seemed cheap at £3., so I invested heavily in what I'm hoping is an antique. ;)      Description reads............

Pale bottle green, with one large and some much smaller bubbles - one white seed  and a number of very small black ones.
Glass is quite thick and pontil has been snapped, with dirt and discolouration around the sharp edges as to be expected from period snapped pontils.    The hat has spent some of its life sitting inverted (used as a bowl/jar or whatever??), but the underside of the brim shows quite massive wear as per the pic - on the front and rear ends, with virtually none on the sides. Height is c. 3.5" and 5" back to front.
This is nothing like the posh hat frigger showing in Hajdamach, and my only book specifically on C18 and C19 coloured glass is a volume from 'The Collector's World in Colour' by Davis & Middlemas  -  which unfortunately doesn't show any hat friggers.    However, the colour of this hat seems an exact match with what was a common colour of Victorian 'door stops/dumps' showing in the book  - so I'm inclined towards thinking this hat is from a Midlands factory c. 1870.
The snapped pontil can be a confusing feature  -  I thought for some time that it was found only on first half C18 glass, but now know that it is occurs not uncommonly on some second half C19 pieces - especially, for example, on what are known as the 'thumb print' ale glasses, which are known to have been made around 1860 - 1880.
If the Mods wish to shove this on a new thread, no problem  -  it just seemed relevant to make a comparison perhaps with the other hat here.         Must admit I did think that Mike's hat looked rather like a 'stetson' - and I wonder if the maker would have put the rim on one side only?
Of course, if I'm off the wall and mine was made in China last year, then I've wasted £3, but please be gentle. ;)

Ref.  'Coloured Glass'   -   Derek C. Davis & Keith Middlemas   -    1968.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 13, 2012, 03:40:41 PM
apologies, there was meant to be a side view which I forgot.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on September 13, 2012, 04:03:26 PM
does yours have a part folded rim?
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 13, 2012, 06:19:26 PM
no folded rim m, I was speaking of Mike's example when I mentioned that. :)
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 16, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
Really sorry I havn't replied earlier , I havn't looked at GMB for a few days.

I did own a hat of the same colour once , it was a little taller and had the same matt band to the underside of the rim (which wasn't folded as in this case) . The pontil scar was snapped off and wasn't heat treated so much as this one. This other hat had been bought by the previous owner from an auctioneers in Bristol (he still had the reciept) and they had described it as either from Nailsea or Bristol. This is the basis of my assumption about this one . Plus the fact that is was bought in a charity shop in Bristol.

There is a really good book on 'Nailsea glass'  the same as the title written by Keith Vincent published by David & Charles. In the book there is a photo of a hat display at Clevedon Court (between Nailsea and Clevedon) . I've taken a couple of photos of the photos in the book !

The greens ranged from pale bottle green through to dark green (plain).

I do need to do some more research here and I will be taking the hat to Clevedon Court to have a look at their collection.

I would like to add that I think (based on the previous hat I once owned  :'( )  it is highly likely that this hat in question is from Bristol /Nailsea . It certainly has an age to it .

Yours Paul could well be a pale bottle green example from Nailsea....but I'm no expert !!

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 16, 2012, 02:19:30 AM
P.S.

Info on Clevedon Court 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevedon_Court

If you scroll down to 'interior' it mentions the Eltonware and Nailsea glass collections.

Also Paul , you could email your pics to them and they may be able to help with the pale green of your hat.......http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/clevedon-court/

ta Mike.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: johnphilip on September 16, 2012, 06:39:06 AM
Hi Mike i hope i didnt throw water on your BBQ i was just seeking more knowledge about something i know very little of .  :-[  jp :'(
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 16, 2012, 10:23:18 AM
Gerdayyy John , you just threw a shrimp on the bar-by and fanned the flames with a hat mate  ;)

The good thing about my example is the half folded rim.....someone wishing to copy this style of Nailsea/Bristol hat and produce a re-pro. wouldn't fold the rim half way around. That's why I feel it's a genuine example of the period and this region yeeer in Bris'ol  :P

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 16, 2012, 10:41:38 AM
thanks for the information Mike - very interesting - obviously another book I need to buy :'(         I've never found or bought any of what we might call real friggers - just don't seem to see them the places I go, but they're a whole world of interest on their own it seems.        I was making the 'Midlands' suggestion for my hat, based on the colour of the door stops/dumps which were shown in my book, together with date, although you may well be correct in saying Nailsea.          Personally, I think jp was justified in making his original comments - in effect what many of the books tend say about friggers i.e. that those pieces with the blobbed/flecked and stripey sorts of colouring are thought more likely to be Nailsea, whereas those of a flint or very pale colour are thought to be less likely from that factory.       Dare say I'd have said something similar.
Remarkable that when buying your hat it should still have with it the original auction house receipt with their Nailsea provenance - it obviously meant a great deal to someone.
Smaller auction houses would probably admit they can't be accurate with everything, and it's perfectly understandable that in a general sale pieces such as our hats should be described as Nailsea, since that would be the assumption made by most people.       Also true to say that glass travels..........the amount of mainland Europe pieces that can be found in local British boot sales for example, is amazing  -  it's possible mine may well have started life many hundreds of miles away from Rye - also perhaps yours from Bristol.

Are there any stones/seeds in your hat Mike?

I will try to email copies of my example as you suggest, and let you know what they say - and thanks again for the links, and trust you will let us have the results of your research after Clevedon Court have seen your hat. :)

P.S.    Never been to Clevedon Court - NT membership now lapsed - but did do Tyntesfield once ............which if you like Victoriana, is an absolute must  -  a fortune built on seagull crap, apparently ;D.

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 16, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
Hi Paul,

Yes this hat does have four little darkish seeds in it. I think it might be bottle glass...suggesting Bristol rather than Nailsea (It was the previous hat I owned which had the auction chitty not this one !)

The Nailsea hats like yours on display at Clevedon Court were made of pale green window glass and in Keith Vincent's book mentioned above he describes the glass like this......"The pale green (window glass from Nailsea) is not one uniform tint, but varies from a pale emerald green to a yellowish green to a bluish green (perhaps yours Paul) , and the actual intensity of the colour depends on the thickness of the metal and varies even in a single piece'

It's worth emailing Clevedon Court as they were very helpful with a couple of pots I had which I thought might be Eltonware. They are very interested to see examples of Eltonware and possible Nailsea glass !

I will let you know how I get on ....the problem is getting there as it's not often open and you have to make an appointment to look inside . Cheers Mike.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 16, 2012, 02:04:19 PM
quote................"(It was the previous hat I owned which had the auction chitty not this one !)"

sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick (or should that be hat)..........I only had one can of lager at lunch time ;D
Misunderstands are always a danger when more than one item gets posted onto the same thread  -  my fault probably.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 16, 2012, 02:16:52 PM
I'm so pleased you found your hat Paul and posted it here along with mine as it makes for a much more interesting trail of comments about glass hats , Nailsea/Bristol or other  ;) !
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 19, 2012, 09:26:31 PM
Pleased to say I have a reply from David Fogden - Clevedon Court - as follows:

""Dear Paul,
As the Administrator at Clevedon Court I necessarily hear a lot about the
house and its artefacts.  Nevertheless, I am NOT an expert in glass!
The first thing to say concerns the term "Nailsea glass".  I have attached
two of the sheets that we offer to our visitors and you can read about the
term there.  I hasten to add that green glass must have been made all over
Europe.  Our assertion about the origin of the green glass here, is merely
based on our location. As for whether your hat originated in Nailsea, who
can say?
Looking at the hats in our collection, nearly all have sharp edges where the
pontil was removed.  None has been polished at all.  We have always
understood that hats were apprentice pieces - presumably at many locations -
and perhaps there was no enthusiasm to do more with them once they were
complete.
There is a website that contains details of the National Trust collection at
http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/ If you search on "glass hat" you
can see the six hats that we have here.

Yours,         David Fogden""

If you go to the website showing the NT collection of glass hats, I particularly like the tricorn example, and am happy to know there is at least another very similar to my pale green example.    Do you recognize yours amongst them, Mike?     I don't think we can say we're any further forward (and may never be) re knowing where specific types/colours were made, although the attached text sheets do seem to imply that simple plain and dark green friggers may well have originated at this factory, some with white or coloured chips  -  but apparently they never produced coloured glass.

In the attached text sheets, the brief history of Nailsea Glass Works is interesting  -  anyone know of 'The Nailsea Glassworks' by Margaret Thomas??
Just realized, being a bit of a thicky, that David's text sheets have been sent to me in pdf format, which the clever people will know are not compatible with the Board - so seems I cannot attach them.     Is there a solution?? ???
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 20, 2012, 06:29:30 AM
Yes, you can save each page as a jpeg (send them to me if you want)
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 20, 2012, 08:08:36 AM
many thanks for the offer Christine - presently just off out for a walk/charity shop jaunt and will forward them to you on my return.         Do appreciate your help :)
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: David E on September 20, 2012, 12:42:22 PM
Quote
In the attached text sheets, the brief history of Nailsea Glass Works is interesting  -  anyone know of 'The Nailsea Glassworks' by Margaret Thomas??
Yup, I have a copy, but can't put my hands on it ATM. Very informative, but cheaply produced paperback that is well researched.

The other book I have on Nailsea, Mike has already mentioned. Again, a very good read if you're into the history or the glass.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 20, 2012, 01:50:00 PM
Here are the documents Paul was sent
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 20, 2012, 02:53:50 PM
my thanks to Christine for her help. :)

David - as per Mike's suggestion my copy of 'Nailsea Glass' by Keith Vincent arrived in the post today  -  I will now have a look for a copy of Margaret Thomas' book.             I think it was Peter (Oldglassman) who suggested the paperback on spirit measures (which I would want to buy), but I thought the asking price (for the only copy I could find) exceptionally high for a paperback.      I come from a time when a new Penguin could be bought for two shillings - and it didn't want any fish. ;D
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Ivo on September 20, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
Throwing one more into the ring, bought in Cambridge many years ago for a fiver.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 20, 2012, 07:00:42 PM
attractive and unusual, not been aware of seeing one in this sort of cased colouring, although there is an example in a similar sort of opaque white showing in the NT link - but don't know if it has a pink interior.           Apparently they come in sizes ranging from about two inches in height, to almost full size and big enough to wear.       Is this a large or small hat, and does it have a rough pontil mark?

having thrown your hat into the ring (i.e. requesting a bare fist fight) I'll wager you're now waiting for someone else to follow suit and be your sparring partner  ;)   
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Ivo on September 20, 2012, 07:09:51 PM
it is about 2" and has a broken pontil mark which is very neat. And no fighting when there is glass in the ring, eyyy!
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: KevinH on September 21, 2012, 10:04:25 PM
Quote
In the attached text sheets, the brief history of Nailsea Glass Works is interesting  -  anyone know of 'The Nailsea Glassworks' by Margaret Thomas??
Like David, I also have a copy of the Margaret Thomas book, but unlike David, mine is easily to hand. What would you like to know?
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 22, 2012, 07:55:14 AM
This is wonderful !!

Your hat Paul looks like the colour of hat 1 on the far left under the glass hat search !!

The second hat in looks like it has a folded rim.....which is good news !

I can't see anything like mine there but I think mine is bottle glass and yours Paul could well be window glass (from Nailsea, what a great find if it is !!)..... mine might be from one of the bottle works in Bristol or Nailsea (perhaps) ..... I will just have to try and match the colour but as the greens varied so much even that will be difficult to prove. At this point all I can say of mine is that it has age, it was bought in the region, it's of a bottle green colour and has a half-folded rim  ::) .

The other green hat I had of the same colour (mentioned above) had a sharp pontil snap , not fired  like this example. It might be an easy matter just to stick the hat under some heat though to smooth the finish. Perhaps this was done in the bottle making process where a seperate souce of heat was to hand.

The other hat, I had sold on ebay for £30.00 and was bought by an American gentleman.....oh how I wish I had kept it  :'(

For me it's not the value of the hat that matters it's owning a piece of local glass history which would be nice to prove ! .....However , that might be too difficult.

I'm very pleased about the colour match with yours though Paul it looks very promising indeed !!

Thanks so much for all the comments everyone ....it's great !
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: David E on September 22, 2012, 10:52:49 AM
Like David, I also have a copy of the Margaret Thomas book, but unlike David, mine is easily to hand. What would you like to know?
Ah, found it - the red cover was easy to spot after all!

ISBN: 0862922852
Page: 55
Size A5 (210x148mm)
Written by Margaret Thomas, © 1987

The very last para is worth reading (rather too long to transcribe) as it does mention that by 1853 there was only one Bristol glassmaking company remaining (apart from Nailsea, which was in decline), and that was Powell & Ricketts. Perhaps this is where the hat derived from?
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 22, 2012, 04:53:37 PM
Thanks David,

I will try to get hold of a copy of the book .

I went shopping in Nailsea today and took some photos of the remains of the glassworks.

To get some general directions,  I called into a shop and the very nice lady I spoke to, just happened to own two lumps of cullet from the Nailsea Glassworks which have been passed down to her. So she's going to bring them to the shop and I will take some photos and post them here. They are a light green , window glass colour. It will take a few weeks because she is going away on hols.. Should be interesting to see them.....
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 22, 2012, 06:28:09 PM
my thanks to those who have now dug out their copies of Margaret Smith's book. :)       I wasn't in need of any specific part of the content  -  however, I was aware of two copies of the book available on Abe Books, both titled 'The Book of Nailsea' - and in view of this thought it possible that the volume was simply a history of the town rather than being concerned with the glass works - my confusion having arisen because from memory the NT sheets (shown above) give the book title as 'The Nailsea Glassworks'.           As interesting as I'm sure it would have been,I didn't want a book solely on the topography of a minor Somerset village.          Of course, it may well be that the book IS concerned with the glass works only  -  I should have worded my original question more clearly - wooly thinking again Paul S  -  must try harder.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 22, 2012, 06:29:58 PM
less confusion would arise if I at least got the author's name correct..........it's Margaret Thomas :-[
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 23, 2012, 08:06:29 AM
Hi Paul ,

I think you might be able to get a copy from here....If you scroll down you can see it ....I hope it's still available.

http://www.ndlhs.org.uk/publications.html

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: David E on September 23, 2012, 09:33:33 AM
Margaret Thomas' book is primarily about the glassworks. It has a very interesting historical connection with other glasshouses, Chance, Pilkington and Hartleys included and why it's essential reading for me!
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on September 23, 2012, 09:43:36 AM
thanks Mike  - I've sent an email, and fingers crossed they still have copies available.

Appreciate your reply David, thanks.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on September 25, 2012, 10:15:54 PM
There are a couple of lavishly illustrated articles on Nailsea from 1911 and 1920 in the Glass-Study and those make it clear that there were more than one glassworks - the articles based on two collections might not be the most scholarly but the first has many references to factual data sources. The collections were largely sourced with locals who had the items from former workers.. included are plenty of colourful examples reputedly by French workers.

Also I quote
Quote
  The latticinio glass generally took the form of flasks, large pipes, bells, bottles, and rolling-pins. The flasks were sometimes used, it is said, by ladies and gentlemen taking the waters at Bath; and no doubt they were brought into requisition by our grandparents for carrying wine and other liquor during the wearisome journeys of the times.

These flasks vary in height from 3¼ in. (third row) to 10½ in., and four of them have the double neck. In the first and third rows are two specimens of the greenish-black bottle glass flecked with white. The smaller specimen with red and blue, in the top row, was exhibited in the Great Exhibition of 1851. Nearly every colour is represented in this fine series — clear white, opaque white, pale golden brown, yellow (rare), dark red (rare), pink and salmon, greens, blues (dark and pale). In referring to colour, mention should be made of the glass kaleidoscope in Mrs. Challicom’s collection, which is interesting as exhibiting specimens of the various colours of glass manufactured at Nailsea. It is 11¼ in. long, 3 in. in diameter, and was made by one Tom Bryant. 

I would suspect the statement that only windows being made was referring to the Chance period of ownership without looking deeper. But the article does say uncertainty over the origins of all the pieces cannot be guaranteed.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: David E on September 25, 2012, 10:46:32 PM
I would suspect the statement that only windows being made was referring to the Chance period of ownership without looking deeper. But the article does say uncertainty over the origins of all the pieces cannot be guaranteed.
As you appear to be referring to my statement, Frank, then I did not say that only windows were made, but that it was Nailsea's core business. There is no doubt that Nailsea produced bottles in the early days, and also a lot of fancy items of which most have been attributed as friggers, therefore not items made commercially, or sold, by the factory. The Hartley ownership (c.1850) was when the factory was leased out and the last was Samuel Bowen, whose core business was, indeed, making window glass.
To quote from Margaret Thomas' well researched book:
p.20, Methods of Manufacture
Quote
The glassworks at Nailsea made only crown glass...
and p.24
Quote
By the late 1830s Nailsea was using a new technique in glassmaking - cylinder or sheet glass - which had been reintroduced into England by Chance Bros. in 1833.

Crown and sheet glass was only ever made to produce flat glass. There are plenty of facts and figures in this little book to support this.

Chance then took over the factory in 1870, where it tried to renovate the works (unsuccessfully) and the business closed forever in 1874. The output during Chance's tenure was minimal and this was not the thrust of my statement.

Some dates are from memory, so may be slightly out.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on September 26, 2012, 06:55:50 AM
I am sure the account you mention has more accuracy than the 100 year old one but an amusing part of that is:
Quote
Chance & Co. did not buy the Nailsea works as a good speculation, but to keep other workers out. They manufactured only sheet and rolled plate glass, of which they kept a large stock; some of it was sent by water to Ireland, Scotland, and Bristol Conflicting statements are made as to the reasons why Chance & Co. closed the Nailsea works. It has been stated in print that the quality of the coal obtained at that time was so poor that it did not give sufficient heat for glass-making. Others report that the machinery became worn out, and that some of it fell into adjacent holes. Others, again, say that some of the buildings collapsed, and the firm suffered considerably from the endless expenditure in keeping the works in repair. The glass is said, too, to have been of poor quality in the seventies. But the true reason is probably summed up in the words, “The works did not pay.”
Visions of workers edging alongside the holes to do their work  ;D

Also, some of the workers went to Scotland and similar items that get attributed to Nailsea were made there in Alloa.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: David E on September 26, 2012, 07:17:28 AM
There is no doubt that the Nailsea works was in a dilapidated state when John Chance attempted to auction the works in 1901, as it is recorded as such. But a report of 1885 "all was found to be in good order", according to M. Thomas. The report of unsuitable locally based sand and coal could also have been a factor.

But as for the machinery failing, I somehow doubt it. It is recorded that Chance moved men, machinery and tools to Smethwick once the works had closed and "all available plant and machinery, not required at Spon Lane [Smethwick] was sold", so it is reasonable to assume that the machinery was still viable, and that any deficiency in this department could have been overcome.

The simple conclusion, as stated by Thomas, is that the works simply did not pay.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 26, 2012, 02:46:21 PM
Gosh , what a story ! Holes in the ground ! Probably the old coal mines giving way !

David when you say Crown and sheet glass was only ever made to produce flat glass , this excludes friggers made from window glass itself I assume.  In Keith Vincents book on page 9 he says " Window glass was the main concern at Nailsea , but the heavy excise duty on flint glass could have stimulated the production of domestic ware from both crown and bottle glass as a sideline . " He talks about using up the pot remains at the end of a shift and lists of products made by Chance Brothers at Smethwick in 1868. I guess this would have been the case at Nailsea too.
I just wanted to confirm that friggers and domestic wares from Nailsea could be made from either bottle or window glass that's all . Just so that I'm not barking up the wrong tree.

Ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: David E on September 26, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
To the best of my knowledge, all the friggers created by Nailsea would have used 'end-of-day' glass. With the Excise duty in place until 1845, any product was liable to this tax. As Keith Vincent points out, window glass was taxed at a much lower rate. But it must be remembered that all(?) friggers (called 'foreigners' by Chance workers) were made by the workers and were almost certainly not liable for tax. This was quite a common practice at Chance Brothers right up until 1976, and commonly known at Nailsea. Most other glassworks would have seen similar items being made - pretty much a universal practice, I imagine.

The various effects the workers created (pulled, feathered, spattered, etc.) must have meant they used the coloured glass from other pots (Nailsea made coloured sheet glass too), but equally they could have simply used the plain glass - often with a faint green-tinge - to create all manner of wares to, ahem, sell off down the pub.

Once I have put all my books back on the shelves I'll be able to check his book properly for myself.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on September 26, 2012, 04:07:44 PM
Cheers David, Good luck with your book !
 
I hope to be able to take some photos of the cullet which is owned by a very nice lady from Nailsea (as I said before) . She said it was passed on to her by a neighbour who's family had worked at the glassworks as plumbers (I think ).  There was another lady in the shop at the time who had a collection of lumps of glass dug from the garden of her house which was close to the glassworks. They both said that during the 1960's it was quite common to find Nailsea friggers such as knitting needles etc. in and around the Bristol area but now they are few and far between. I did show them this green glass hat but they didn't recognise the colour !

So, for what it's worth , at least the cullet will be something of a reference point for one Nailsea colourway (it's got white flecks too , so she said !).  Ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: BohaGlass on October 05, 2012, 07:17:35 PM
Hi everyone,

I have been gathering information on the old Nailsea Glassworks, which is just 4 miles from here.
I even managed to find a few pictures of the original Glassworks. You can see the article here:
http://www.bohaglass.co.uk/nailsea-glass/

Regards
Barnaby
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on October 06, 2012, 03:31:21 PM
I went to the museum in Bristol today to take some photos of their Nailsea glass display. Most of the examples here are described in the museum as probably Nailsea and can be seen in Keith Vincent's book (in black & white). The general colour of the window glass is a blueish light green and it exactly matches the colour of the knitting needle frigger in my other thread.

The hat in green (with white flecks) , described as probably Nailsea , is dated c1830 , it has a snapped off pontil scar which has been heat 'polished' . I'm not sure if the colour of the green matches my hat , very difficult to gauge. 

Anyway I hope you like the photos and that they can be of some help.

Thanks for the photos Barnaby , I'm still reading the link about the Tesco's site. 
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on October 06, 2012, 03:35:16 PM
The cullet was found on the glassworks site.

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: KevinH on October 06, 2012, 10:06:53 PM
Good photos!

Now the GMB has probably a better range of images of "true Nailsea glass" than in most of the books I have seen so far.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on October 07, 2012, 08:08:40 AM
Ta Kevin,

I was pleased that the photos were in focus , I thought the glass cabinet would mess up the auto focus on the camera.

Here is another one I took...see page 59 , plate 55 of Keith Vincent's book. Its interesting to read the card on window glass where it states that by the 1850's (at least) some domestic wares were being made on a commercial basis.

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on October 07, 2012, 05:59:07 PM
Great pics !  thank you  :)
so my knitting needles aren't 12"in length, but I have another question - did Nailsea use uranium in their glass?
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on October 07, 2012, 07:12:06 PM
In Keith Vincent's book he describes Nailsea Crown and sheet window glass as being 'soda-lime' glasses. "the standard 'sodium sulphate' mixture was composed of sixteen parts sand, six parts dry sodium sulphate five parts of hydrate of lime, twelve parts of cullet and small amounts of charcoal, arsenic and manganese. There was also a carbonate mixture of slightly different composition " I think it was impurities in the sand which caused the green tinge. There is no mention of uranium , this book is all I have to go on here  :)

Do your knitting needles glow ? under uv  8)   
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on October 07, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
no, but today I bought this which does  :D (it was a lot more than £1.50 though) absolutely beautiful feathering, but a small bruise right at the bottom on one side.
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on October 07, 2012, 09:37:51 PM
nice flask m - what provenance did the seller give you?          Although the Nailsea works was still making glass some thirty something years or so after the beginnings of glass being coloured with uranium (Nailsea closed in 1874), I can't see anything in either Vincent or Margaret Thomas' book to suggest the Nailsea factory produced material with a glow :)       It's perhaps a possibility that as Nailsea appear to have been making crown glass (pale green) and bottles (dark green) which are both utility type material, then the addition of uranium would never have been a consideration.       According to the attachments above from Clevedon, Nailsea only ever made crown glass (soda-lime) and bottles - very little fancy glass was ever made, and apparently none commercially - I think David has already made these points.        Flasks were one of the most common kinds of friggers, so I guess were made at most of the Bristol, Midlands, and northern factories - and no doubt the Continent.  Manganese was certainly used, and I'd assume very essential, in view of the iron impurities in the sand, which until about 1830 was sourced locally since that was a lot cheaper  than places like the I.O.W.
Tomorrow I'm hoping to buy a 'violin/chello' in pale blueish green, so will post a pic. if I do manage to get it.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on October 07, 2012, 10:01:23 PM
No provenance, just bought in the vicinity.  And yes,having re- read the thread and read the items you posted, I now know it wasn't made in Nailsea.  So why are these called Nailsea flasks I wonder - I will start a separate thread for it now  :)
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: KevinH on October 07, 2012, 10:42:03 PM
Quote
So why are these called Nailsea flasks I wonder
This is just a continued use of the name rather than saying "Nailsea-type" (referring mainly to the style of loops). Nothing more complicated than that.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on October 08, 2012, 01:59:47 PM
Mike's suggestion that Clevedon may still have copies of Margaret Thomas' booklet is quite true, and I can recommend this as a very good read for the small outlay of something like three or four quid - well worth getting, so thanks Mike.

Coming back to the problem of why so much material was previously attributed to the Nailsea factory (when in fact most so called Nailsea glass was never made at Nailsea) - it seems, according to Margaret Thomas, that the culprit was a wrong assumption made early in the C20 by the then curator of Taunton Museum.       For copyright reasons I can't quote  from Thomas' booklet, but the bottom line seems to be that this assumption lead to all the material in a leading collection of C19 glass, formed by one Mrs. Challicombe, being described as having all been made at Nailsea...........and like so many areas of antiquity, subsequent workers following suit without checking facts  -  for those who may have the booklet, it's page 26.

I've attached a pix of my 'cello' (this is the correct spelling :-[).        Very pale blueish green (might it be described as aquamarine?? - certainly not the pale green of my hat shown above, somewhere)  -  c. 8.5" long, and appears to be an enclosed vessel.       Pontil has been snapped from the foot, and quite a lot of wear on the back, so would seem this instrument has been laying down for most of its life.          Attractive pincered work with some stones and bubbles as you'd expect.      Plenty of dirt in the crevices, and in my opinion no later than c. 1850 - 1860 - possibly earlier.    No idea of its origin though.
If inappropriate to post here, then please move  -  it might go into a 'frigger/friggar' post together with m's flask, perhaps :) 
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on October 08, 2012, 02:09:47 PM
Obviously not working well today :'(         I meant to also add that the only other musical instrument frigger I can find is in Wilkinson, where he shows what appears to be a clear glass example of a violin/'cello.     He doesn't give any attribution, and comments that his is 'completely handmade c. 1860'.       Not easy to tell the collour of his example as the book pic. is black and white, but it looks to be quite probably a clear example  -  and a bit neater and well made than mine.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: oldglassman on October 08, 2012, 02:29:37 PM
HI ,
            You will find without too much trouble trumpet friggers in clear and coloured glass , and they work I have several ,comically you can find them on eBay being sold as ear trumpets !!!!
 A good little series of 13 thin paperbacks by Geoffrey Wills  'English and Irish glass' has in N#13 Novelties and Friggers were you can see all the things that have been discussed , hats, pipes, bellows. trumpets, etc ,

cheers
  Peter

ps  a couple of mine added.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on October 08, 2012, 03:55:59 PM
why is it that all the books you mention are volumes I don't have ;D    I have Irish content by...... Phelps Warren, G. Bernard Hughes, E. M. Elville, but unfortunately, not Wills.       But, Peter, you didn't mention a 'cello ;)        However, thanks of course for the book mention.

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on October 27, 2012, 11:22:34 AM
I've been having a go at trying to match the colour of my hat to Powell & Ricketts bottles (of Bristol)....with limited success  ::)

There is quite a good match to the top bottle which was made for a firm called Spencer Tyler from Weston Super Mare (havn't been able to find any dates for them ).

The Hodges & Son (bottom) has an even bluer tint to it !

The other, larger(left), earlier (3 piece mould patented by Ricketts) bottle has a brownish tint to the green (it is green !).

I note that Margaret Thomas states in her book (I've now got a copy, cheers) that in 1836/37 only crown window glass was being made at Nailsea.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on October 27, 2012, 11:33:30 AM
Here's another , there is a definate blue tinge in the hat .

Perhaps after Nailsea closed many of the glassworkers went to find work in the bottle works in Bristol and continued to make friggers !
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 11, 2012, 02:43:28 PM
Of course they did and that is why it can be near impossible to trace a frigger to a factory.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 11, 2012, 04:02:20 PM
I'm confused by this thread now.
So is it possible that coloured friggers with white and blue and red for example, were made at the Nailsea factory?
thanks
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 11, 2012, 04:11:50 PM
I've been researching another piece and came across this interesting piece of information on glass makers in Bristol late 18th century and the days of the week they produced glass!
the information is taken from
 Matthews's New History of Bristol or Complete Guide
 of 1793-94 and is on the subject of Glass Manufacture in Bristol
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Bristol_and_Somerset/2008-11/1225886981
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 11, 2012, 05:34:56 PM
I'm confused by this thread now.
So is it possible that coloured friggers with white and blue and red for example, were made at the Nailsea factory?

Possible but also possibly unlikely. Remains an unknown. Unfortunately the Smith study did not know about glass trails until after the dig was finished. So I guess we will have to wait for a new dig when Tesco sell of and get demolished. The ¨Ornamental burning kiln¨ is under the store and would be the best place to find trails of any glass used for decorative items. Most of the older assumptions have been disproved, dismissed or disbelieved.

In the meantime we can say that there are some pieces known as Nailsea glass that may or may not have a connection with Nailsea. But we do now have a new mystery of Nailsea that will also have to wait for a future dig, see Smith report.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 11, 2012, 05:38:23 PM
... the days of the week they produced glass!

Seems a bit weird as you cannot fire up a on odd days like that, must be a misinterpretation of source material.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 11, 2012, 06:03:35 PM
I thought it was odd and my conclusion was that it meant the days visitors could visit not that they only worked glass on those days - so  'visitors' who paid were allowed to visit on those particular days to see them working that particular type glass. 

I loved the way it was written though and found the bit about export to America really interesting - Of course I know export and import was enormous between countries at that time, no different to now really, but I mean we're talking 220yrs ago and they are discussing the huge quantities being exported.
I also loved this snippet
'by presenting a small gratuity to the workmen, who living in
 hot climates are very glad of some suction to moisten their clay.'
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 13, 2012, 12:03:41 AM
http://www.geog.qmul.ac.uk/victorianlondon/pdf/Glass.pdf
just adding this to the mix -
Glass document (dated 23/8/07)of glass found
'Victorian glass from New Palace Yard,
Westminster, Bell Green, Lower Sydenham and the Cyril Jackson School,
Limehouse
Author: Nigel Jeffries (Museum of London Archaeology Services)'
includes the info on page 8
'Rolling pin
<107> [1] end portion: rolling pin, hand blown, marbled in natural green (almost
olive) coloured glass. Likely to have been made by the Nailsea glassworks in Bristol.
One fragment. Wt 486 grammes.'

and on page 10
'<116> [5] end portion: rolling pin, hand blown, marbled in natural green (almost
olive) coloured glass. Likely to have been made by the Nailsea glassworks in Bristol,
there are faint traces of enamelled paint present, with one possibly forming the shape
of an anchor. Display item. One fragment. Wt 207 grammes.'
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 13, 2012, 01:25:28 PM
Well there is one who did not read the study. Later takes the presence of these same rolling pins to indicate the use of glass for decorative purposes, quoting such 'recent' source as Percival  ::) and at this point offers an alternative to Nazeing but not the many we know there are! I wonder if our kitchen glass rolling pin will lead to this assumption if it remains her for the next 100 years or more?

And how can you conclude that finding a different selection of broken glasses disposed of in old backfill/toilets is indicative of not buying sets? Presumably in those days if you broke one of a set you dumped the whole set. :P

Finally the assertion that it is mostly British glass in origin because that was most popular in Victorian times seems to be at odds with not being able to identify the origin of most pieces.

Written in 2007 it is thus quite shocking really!
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 13, 2012, 01:33:47 PM
yes, I was quite bemused.
m
edited - btw for anyone interested the link to the Smith study 2004 is here (I hope it works)
 http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-400-1/dissemination/pdf/Nailsea_2004_3_Glassworks_Desk-top_Rev1b.pdf
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 13, 2012, 08:01:18 PM
It's all very interesting !

The great thing about friggers, in general (for me), is that it's a very personal piece of work for the glassblower who made it.  Was it made for a family member or a parade or for extra income ? It's the fact that they were made  out of hours , away from the monotony of production , to a personal design, that's intriguing. Then there is the task of trying to work out where and when  it may have been made. e.g.  This hat , probably Bristol and probably not Nailsea, now being the more likely theory... given the uncertainty ! ::) ;) :D

As for Nailsea friggers, the Bristol and Taunton museums must have spent so much time researching the Challicom collection and this means that those on display are a great source for identification, despite the fact that the cards describing most of the objects say 'probably Nailsea' !

Ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 13, 2012, 08:44:38 PM
Sadly only a great source of 'probably' without a time machine there can be no certainty with a lack of documentation. Greatest shame is that despite the possible historical 'importance' now buried by Tesco, a symbol of our social values, is that all we have left is a Nailsea folklore. But as long as we have studies using Percival as a 'source' at least we will have a folklore  8)
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 14, 2012, 09:49:27 AM
Mike I don't think one can say probably Bristol and not Nailsea.  I don't think it's possible to say where any of these items originated from with any degree of certainty.  Especially given the ebay effect where items can be posted across the world now.  The uranium flask I posted could be English, but might not be.  It's old I feel sure, it was sold near Nailsea in fact, but apparently it did not originate there.
Even the items made of very dark glass with flecks/spots in them of coloured glass or little white bits have been linked to Wrockwardine from what I read.
Perhaps I'm just confused but I can't see any definite evidence anywhere for being able to link friggers to certain factories at all?  I suppose if they have direct provenance/family history from the factory, or were actually dug up at a factory site, then the probability of them originating there is higher.
Or am I missing something?
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 14, 2012, 10:36:00 AM
No your not confused and Nailsea type glass was also made in Alloa, Scotland... where incidentally many Nailsea workers went too. Probably find it was made elsewhere in Europe too if you start to look. So terms like Nailsea and Bristol blue are meaningless for identification of source... but useful for communicating in words a style of glass.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 14, 2012, 06:51:20 PM
Hi m,

I did say it was only a theory (my theory) about the hat. It wasn't bought on ebay but from a charity shop in Bristol and it is very similar to the other hat I had , thought to be Nailsea but might have been made at a bottle factory either in Bristol or elsewhere.   

The hat isn't very well made (half-folded brim) so probably it wouldn't have been sold but just kept in the family of whoever made it....local to Bristol.

The glass has a similar colour to a bottle made in Bristol but these bottle colours vary over the years. There is a distinct blue tint to most of these bottles that also exists in the green colour of the hat. This might be due to the local sand used...who knows...the same result might be had by looking at bottles, of the same period produced, in London .

The style of the hat , not being a top hat , but more of a bowler , might suggest late Victorian period and not 1830's when Nailsea stopped producing bottle glass. Many of the workers from the Nailsea glassworks must have gained jobs in the Bristol bottle works after Nailsea closed and continued the tradition of making glass hats.

So that's my  theory which I'm putting forward here but there's always doubt about a theory unless it can be proved ....which in this case , it can't   ::) !   

The examples of probable Nailsea glass in the Bristol Museum from the Challicom collection were collected by Mrs Bertha Challicom , in and around Nailsea, in the early years of the  20th C . (see page 18 Nailsea Glass , K Vincent). Some of the Nailsea examples have been handed down through the families of glassworkers at Nailsea.  I'm sure the Bristol Museum must have examples of cullet dug from the gardens in Nailsea so they are able to devote a whole cabinet to possible Nailsea glass based on colour recognition and known Nailsea inherited items. You would need to ask them though how they came to their conclusions . ;)

Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 14, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
Unfortunately cullet cannot be reliably used to id a glassworks products as it was often bought in. This was discussed in the Smith report and he hoped that a future excavation can look for grass trails. (Bits of glass spilt or dripped going from gather to blower as well as around the chair.) These can be reliably used as they would be from the actual melt and would give definitive analysis for identifying possible items.

So for foreseeable future Tesco have it covered  >:(
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 14, 2012, 11:55:08 PM
But also in Smith report...

Quote
From Nailsea Glassworks Study, - 2004 - Part 1

Initial window glass production was in the form of crown glass, then later sheet glass using swinging pits, then it appears rolled plate glass and some fancy glass was produced. It would seem that later some coloured and engraved glass was also produced. There is, for example, a copy of a pattern sheet for this, dating from 1855 1861, deposited at the SRO by the generosity of the Nailsea & District Local History Society.

John Eyres (boy clerk in the 1860s) wrote in 1911

Following the collapse {1862} of the furnace Eyres records that “it was several years before the ‘Old’ house was again at work.” Subsequently “a little side furnace was built for one or two men to make fancy goods, such as propagators, cucumber glasses, rolling pins and glass shades.”

This furnace was also noted separately as “Ornamental burning kiln”.

I will not accept that this side furnace was built for making friggers - this was for commercial work on a small scale perhaps but to meet a need in local market!  Clearly they needed to continue what they were already doing in the Old house! Which opens the field on colours too. I like to see that pattern sheet!
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 15, 2012, 12:03:06 AM
they didn't say friggers Frank. They said 'fancy goods'.  Could 'fancy glass' be their way of differentiating small items from plate glass/window glass, rather than making an assumption it means friggers?  I'm interested in the coloured glass bit. 
There is an article here
http://www.nailseatowncouncil.gov.uk/history.php 
from the Nailsea Local History people, but again this might be just 'perpetuating myth', it mentions coloured glass and end of shift glass being made

quote ' Established on the open heath against the Nailsea / Wraxall border, John Robert Lucas initially built two cones – one for bottle making, the other for the production of window glass for the so-called Industrial Revolution. His works was to prosper under several partnerships, and by the mid nineteenth century had become the fourth largest glassworks in Britain covering some six acres between the Royal Oak Public House and Nailsea Park. Crown, cylinder and plate glass were produced, along with a limited amount of coloured. However, it was the “end of shift” domestic ware and novelty pieces made by the skilled and apprentice blowers that have accorded Nailsea glass its international recognition.


m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 15, 2012, 01:33:10 AM
Quote
John Eyres (boy clerk in the 1860s) wrote in 1911

Following the collapse {1862} of the furnace Eyres records that “it was several years before the ‘Old’ house was again at work.” Subsequently “a little side furnace was built for one or two men to make fancy goods, such as propagators, cucumber glasses, rolling pins and glass shades.”

That is clear, I guess production items. First two for local farms/gardeners, then souvenir shops and lighting companies?
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 15, 2012, 05:38:44 PM
Hi Frank,

There's a pattern sheet of cut window glass , on page 25 of The Nailsea Glassworks by Margaret Thomas . Is this the pattern sheet they are talking about I wonder or is it something else ?

Here is some more talk about a pattern sheet , but after the book was written (is it the same one ?). Scroll down halfway , under the heading of Nailsea Glassworks  .

http://www.ndlhs.org.uk/pennant/Pennant-25.pdf

Ta, Mike.



Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 15, 2012, 05:51:54 PM
Interesting in terms of colours - it discusses the use of ruby, blue orange (sic)?? and white obscured glass

m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 15, 2012, 06:58:05 PM
Yes, the pattern sheet talked about in the link (above) is from the 1870's and the one in the book is 1860's with a different company name .
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 15, 2012, 09:11:51 PM
Not sure which one Smith referred to but did say it was now in the SRO.

Lots of interesting items about the glassworks in the Pennant link
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on November 16, 2012, 05:34:13 PM
sorry to hear that m has been sic ;) ........and Mike, what did you decide in the end.....keep your hat or flog it and give half to the charity shop ;)
Do hats come up on ebay, and if so what do they fetch money wise??       not that I'd ever sell mine.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 16, 2012, 07:02:25 PM
Hi Paul,

My previous hat, I once owned , :'( , I sold on ebay for £30.00 to a buyer in the U.S.A. (as mentioned above).

I'm keeping this one though....perhaps I need to go back to the charity shop and give them £30.00

Paul, how do you think the colour of yours compares to the Nailsea window glass pics. from the Bristol museum ?

 Ta, Mike.

Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on November 16, 2012, 08:32:54 PM
not easy to make a comparison right now, as I'm sitting in a non-daylight type of electric light, but......I'd say the colour of my hat is identical to your pix of the 6th October showing the pane of crown window glass, the strap handled jug and the piece of cullet.       As for the colour, I'd agree with Keith Vincent's description of "a pale green metal, the characteristic Nailsea colour" (for articles other than the bottles) -  although as with all glass 'colours' this is open to some degree of personal interpretation, and can be variable depending on the thickness of the glass, but I think the match with my hat is o.k. as a pale watery green.     
As we've said before, the sand used at Nailsea appears to have been sourced locally (to Bristol), certainly in this factory's earlier period, to minimize transport costs - obviously when you're making utility articles economy is important, and maybe different 'sands' produce slightly differing colours, and this one is PERHAPS characteristic of the particular Nailsea source of sand.   But on the other hand maybe most sands give something close to this when you aren't using the cleanest and most pure product with iron impurities.   

Vincent's book categorizes the various types of glass from Nailsea, and in his category No. 1 he refers to articles of a 'pale green tinge' as soda-lime glasses, for which, obviously, one constituent was manganese.      You'd assume the factory had made various trials and found this was the nearest they could get to a clear glass, and had they introduced a greater quantity of manganese this would have created its own problem by making the glass darker rather than simply de-colourizing the stuff.       

As you'd imagine, the recipe for this 'pale green tinge' doesn't include iron oxide - which was however added to the batch when manufacturing bottles (and the manganese was probably omitted) - presumably it was traditional to have dark green or brown for bottles - and probably cheaper to produce.    Perhaps no factory had made clear bottles prior to this date???    Why were bottles always dark green or brown??

Vincent suggests that it seems unlikely that flint glass (i.e. clear) was produced at Nailsea  -  all items examined appear to have the pale green tinge present to some degree - even thinly blown pieces.

So........my hat might have been made at Nailsea, possibly :)
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 19, 2012, 08:58:07 AM
Cheers Paul,

You must be very pleased with your charming hat . If you ever find yourself in Bristol then you must pay a visit to the museum with hat in hand ! Not only is there the Nailsea display but there is a large collection of early French paperweights, Bristol blue, green,purple etc. and a very big cabinet full of early drinking glasses.

Owning a possible piece of Nailsea brings a real added interest to reading around and researching the whole subject area .

I have a good basic book entitled 'English Bottles and Decanters 1650-1900' written by Derek Davis , a Letts Collectors Guide ,1972, SBN 850970490.

He talks about the addition of added minerals for colour and pulverised cobalt was imported from Saxony into Bristol  . Copper and cobalt was used for Bristol blue, ...copper, iron, chromium for green...nickel and manganese for violet ....calcium,tin,arsenic,fluorspar(what's that?) and phosphate for 'white opal'.  ......just thought I'd throw that in  ;)

On page 28 there's a straight sided bottle dated 1777, in the description he states that dark bottles made of impure metal could be made cheaply and the darkness of the bottle was thought to protect the wine from daylight. The book doesn't touch on clear/light green Codd mineral bottles though.

ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on November 19, 2012, 09:27:29 AM
hello Mike.        I live within the M25 ring, which is great for getting into London, but the down side can sometimes getting out of it.             Twice I tried to reach Tyntesfield (that mega Victorian/Gothic pile near Bristol), and twice had to turn back because of traffic issues on the either the M3 or M4 - so now I have a phobia about trying to reach the Somerset area ;)      However, I did get to that particular NT property in the end, and well worth the effort - can recommend a visit.         The other draw, in that area, for me is that I believe there is a museum somewhere with a good collection of C18 drinking glasses - might it be in Bristol??
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 19, 2012, 09:43:00 AM
Hi Paul,

Yes , Bristol has a very large collection of 18thC drinking glasses , really worth the visit if you can make it !

Try going early Sunday morning  :) ;), the museum is open on a Sunday (and it's free) you will find the glass at the top of the building near the ceramics where there is a fantastic display of early Bristol porcelain statuettes dating from around 1770's.

ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 19, 2012, 10:02:47 AM
Try coming via Stonehenge :)
much nicer journey and you get to see the stones en route which are fabulous.
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on November 19, 2012, 02:19:05 PM
thanks Mike - will certainly make the effort in the coming months to get there - probably better in the winter - less traffic.

Don't tell me about the A303  -  another thing in life that no sane person should be forced to experience ;)      I sat there this summer on the way to Cornwall, and sat and sat and sat - it seemed to take hours to get through that part of Wiltshire.    I can remember the time when you could walk right up to the stones and even sit on them  -  I guess now it's grockles blocking up the roads.       But what is fabulous about them m - a load of old granite forming an allegedly incomplete druid ceremonial meeting place - sorry not my scene, and as for seeing the stones, from what I gather when passing, doesn't look as though you can get any near than about 70 yards ;D
But I hear the road configuration is going to be altered to alleviate congestion of the holiday traffic, so should improve, hopefully, but for now I'll stick to the M4.

Apologies this is off topic. :-[
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on November 20, 2012, 12:38:17 AM
Yeah dark colour was to keep light out a bit.

I guess the Nailsea workers could stroll down and sit on the stones for munching their sandwiches (Not afraid of a brisk walk in them days) ;-) . It is sad the henge got fenced off, let them be worn away, you need to touch them to enjoy them. Just like glass!
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 20, 2012, 01:21:11 AM
Paul,   I must have passed them hundreds of times and still think they are magnificent every single time.  Mind you we live surrounded by Druid lore and the Tor (again a beautiful view, especially from miles away up on the hills) is within eyesight in a few minutes so I guess it's just what you are used to  :)
Having grown up at Pendle, with the Lancashire witches as a very big part of my childhood, and where visiting Demdyke and Nutter's graves was considered a special day out, I feel quite comfortable with the Stones  ;D
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Paul S. on November 20, 2012, 09:38:23 AM
yes, I'd agree that distance lends beauty to the eye, and quite true that images like the Tor and Henge when viewed as silhouettes on a sky line do have an appeal.      I've nothing against Somerset by the way :) - used to go fishing on the 'levels' as a lad.

Re Nailsea -  there's a lot of poignancy we tend to overlook in these early manufacturing processes - was just thinking of the child labour of which Vincent speaks........11 and 12 year olds working twelve hour shifts holding shovels at the furnaces to shield the gatherers - with shift work obligatory and Sunday off if you were lucky.         But do notice they had pc even in the mid C19 - apparently if you were illiterate you were described as a 'non-reader', so I shall view my hat and 'cello with more reverence.       
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on November 20, 2012, 09:53:02 AM
On one of the links I gave there is a long section on Social impact that has quite a lot of information in it regarding this.
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on May 22, 2013, 01:06:23 PM
I wasn't sure where to put this but it contains some information on  Glasshouses in Bristol in the 17th and 18th century
http://www.kalendar.demon.co.uk/delfbrisredcliff.htm
m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on May 22, 2013, 04:10:41 PM
and more http://www.kalendar.demon.co.uk/glass.htm
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: flying free on May 22, 2013, 04:21:15 PM
Wow!! clicking on one of the links brings up this
http://www.kalendar.demon.co.uk/glassmini.htm
and how's this for a statistic

' Mr D is enabled to spin one thousand yards of common window glass in the space of one minute, so fine that ten grains in weight will extend eighteen hundred yards in length.  '   :o

m
Title: Re: Breaking News Nailsea / Bristol hat found in charity shop in Bristol for £1.50
Post by: Frank on May 22, 2013, 04:44:25 PM
aka lampworkers. Who did lots with glass fibres too, I would love to know how they spun the fibre smallscale! Only seen industrial machinery. At the 2010 conference we were shown, by scientific glassblowres a delicate glass spring... value was well over one thousand pounds I believe.