Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: mom2esf on February 20, 2014, 10:45:56 PM
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Hi everyone,
I have a client with this cup and saucer he would like to sell. I was hoping someone here could point me to a way to evaluate it's worth. It was sold to him in 1981. He was told it is "Dolce Relievo" circa 1880.
It is unsigned and attributed by the seller to S&W.
The cup is 2 3/4" high. The saucer is 4 1/2" in diameter. There are no chips, no cracks and there is no discoloration.
I have more photos if needed.
Thank you for any assistance you can render,
Brenda
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Hi and welcome to the board.
I'm afraid I can't help you, but hopefully someone will be along shortly who will have more information :)
m
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I wonder whether Webb is a better bet than Stevens and Williams. They certainly used that pink over custard (uranium glass I suspect) combination
https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2257/lots/6
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Thank you Christine and Flying free. Christine, that link was very helpful. The two pieces do look very similar.
I know this is an ignorant question but is a demitasse cup and saucer more or less valuable than a vase?
Thank you again,
Brenda
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Who knows, but cups and saucers are likely to be scarcer. Value is only what people will pay and that auction is 10 years old. Since then things have become even more available and visible over the Internet and glass prices are currently depressed.
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Thanks, Christine.
I know how true that is for nearly all antiques. I did not know if it applied to this particular item. My client paid over $2,200 for this and is expecting to retire on the proceeds…….. ::)
Would you advise taking it to an auction house or selling it on eBay?
Brenda
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I'm not advising on anything... but wishful thinking springs to mind
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;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
It springs to mine as well!
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This is where big bucks glass is often sold though. I regularly dribble on my keyboard
http://jamesdjulia.com/division/lg/
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Christine,
Is that your personal collection in "My Album"? It's amazing!
Thank you, Lustrousstone. I'll go check it out.
B
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Yes, 99%, but a lot of it has passed through. I have nothing to match the c+s though; my Webb Alexandrite glasses are my best buy for ROI
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What is ROI?
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return on investment
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???
I know this sort of thing isn't my area, but I cannot see that the cup and saucer are actually cameo work.
I'm positive I can see evidence of what looks like piping around the edges of the pink stuff.
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Does this help?
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is it white with a dark pink overlay, and then when the pink has been cut back quite a lot (acid etched?) it shows as pale pink as it's only a thin layer over the white, but where the outlines are it's been left thick so shows as dark pink maybe?
m
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I would say it has been colored light pink, outlined in dark pink and then etched leaving a dark pink border. I can see in some places the dark pink outline has been completely cut away. There are only two layers, one of light pink with dark pink outlines and one of a creamy white color. The handle was attached after the etching and has a matte finish.
If anyone is interested they are selling several pieces and I don't mind sharing them with you.
Thanks for all the help,
B
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Perhaps it was the camera angle in the first pics, catching the edges,?
and them being shiney made it look like the deeper pink was piped?
I'm still not convinced it's all cameo work, but as I said, this isn't my area!
You do say, though that you think the deep pink was "outlined" - that's what I meant by piped.
I'd like to be able to feel it!
We need the touchy-feely side to discuss glass properly... ::)
Hey ho.
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Since no one has yet invented "touch/smell o vision" ;D tell me what I would be feeling for, please…..
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What I meant by "outlined" is that it looks to have been produced by the action of taking away material and not adding it. Believe me, I am no expert but that's it what it looks like. If by piping you mean like icing on a cake, then it has definitely not been piped on that I can tell. The dark pink and the light pink are a continuous flat surface with no ridges. The ridge occurs only at the outer edge of the pink and drops to the creamy white.
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Hi ,
Maybe its the fact that this is cameo work in low relief as opposed to what we normally associate with cameo which is in high relief that's a little off putting to Sue.
High relief below
cheers ,
Peter.
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if you run your nail over the pale pink to dark pink edge, can you feel the slightest 'raise' in the dark pink, over the light pink.
I'm attaching a picture of a piece that might be difficult to explain what I mean, but this piece has three layers, clear, white and dark blue. However because the dark blue has been cut back in parts to a very thin layer over the white, it appears much paler (though not as different as yours does) blue with the original dark blue layer just left in parts. The dark blue layer is the same layer as the polished layer left around the base. It's just been cut away to a thinner layer so shows as pale blue giving the effect of three colour glass.
Hopefully you can see on the bottom photo, that some areas of the vines appear to be very dark blue and others a much paler blue and then some white showing as well. All that blue is the same 'layer' as the dark blue polished border at the bottom.
Your dark pink that's left as outlines may appear to have a greater 'change' in colour between the pale and dark pink because of the way it's been cut, i.e. quite definite outlines.
As per Peter's post :)
m
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see above - and also I think the dark pink left on your cup and saucer has been polished (no idea how) so leaving it looking sheeny, deeper in colour and therefore adding to the perceptual difference between the dark and pale pink.
m
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Flying-free described what I meant exactly - running your fingernail over the pale and deeper pinks, to see if there might be the tiniest edge, or using a magnifying glass to peer at them to see if there is a slight graduation.
Is it possible that such an item might be acid-polished after cutting, to make it all seem much smoother, as it is in "Rock-crytstal cut" pieces?
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I don't have the cup in my hands right now so I can't feel it. I will be able to touch it again on Tuesday. It seems to me to have a shiny glaze over the entire surface so I may not be able to feel a ridge between the dark and the light pink. I will be able to tell much more when I have it in my hands thanks to you all telling me what I need to look for.
Oldglassman- In no way is it the quality of the carving you showed…
Flyingfree - That vase is to live for! I hope my drool didn't harm it...
Chopin-liszt - How would I tell the difference between a glaze and an acid polish?
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Umm, I don't know really.
An acid polish will actually dissolve some of the glass, it gets rid of sharp edges from having been cut, leaving it much smoother and softer to the touch.
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Does an acid polish leave the little "feet" marks from from where the supports are that a glaze will leave?
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No. ;D
But that would be "peculiar" to ceramics, wouldn't it? It's not a technique used in glass, to my knowledge.
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SO, Is glass ever glazed?
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Not in the way ceramics are I don't believe (open to correction :) )
I've been looking at the cup and saucer again and I'm wondering whether it is actually three layer colour, white cased in pale pink, cased in dark pink.
I guess then, the outline design would have been cut away, leaving a dark pink patterned layer on a white background. From there, the dark pink would have been etched or cut in someway, back to leave the pale pink layer showing in parts but with the dark pink 'highlights' left on it where the artist wanted them to be.
The design is gorgeous. I think for you to get the best price, a maker will need to be identified.
m
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Assuming Christine is correct that it is Webb, and I believe she is, how do I go about determining the maker? I can't find ANY cameo glass cup and saucers online.
B
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YAY!
Just found one. Now to find the right one or something with this pattern….
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;)
I believe such items in cameo glass are rather unusual. Might even use the r-word...
Rare. There, I said it!
(I do not use the term lightly. ;D )
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Yes, it is my understanding that it is even more rare if they are signed….. sigh…..
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Well , I meant determining whether it is Webb or Stevens and Williams maybe for example - I'm unsure if there are other makers who it could be as well as those two - but from there it might be possible to suggest an individual person who might have made it perhaps.
Which did you find?
please can you give us a link to it?
thank you
don't worry about the signed bit at the moment.
m
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and , I still think Stevens and Williams is a possibility.
I also feel I've read somewhere that the name 'Dolce Relievo' is specific to Stevens and Williams, so if it isn't by them then perhaps that is not the right term to use to describe it?
m
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It links to Pinterest and I can't follow it any further back.
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So for example, this piece was sold as a Stevens and Williams Dolce Relievo piece. The colour fits with a colour (light purple) given in The Crystal Years, a book about Stevens and Williams. The design is pretty similar in style and content to your cup and saucer.
I cannot verify if this linked piece is Stevens and Williams though unfortunately - sorry.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1598808
Just seen your post above. Can you just copy and paste the link to the pinterest item on a reply post then?
m
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Just found it in a different place:
http://www.antiquecolouredglass.info/Thomas%20Webb%20&%20Sons.htm
4th row
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yes a cameo cup and saucer by Webb but not the same as yours :)
I'm just looking up the Stevens and Williams info on Dolce Relievo.
The vase I just linked to is very similar in style to a vase in C Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 by S&W in that the vase in the book as quite similar handles.
I think the vase I linked to has more in common with the way yours is decorated :)
m
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That is VERY similar….
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yes, I need a bit of time to look up the information and for someone else to double check it :)
I think it's important you find out the correct maker - that could lead to more information on the person who worked on the piece, or at least a 'name' of where it might have been decorated.
I will come back to you later with any more info. I'm sure this type of pattern was done by Stevens and Williams (I don't know about Webb as haven't looked up anything about them).
You could in the meantime google 'Stevens Williams Dolce Relievo' and 'Stevens Williams cameo glass' and see if you can find any more information. Also check the Corning Museum of Glass and the Victoria and Albert Museum site as well as a site called Gorgeous Glass from Broadfield House Glass Museum.
Leave out the 'and' in the middle of Stevens and Williams and just use Stevens Williams ....
m
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You have ALL been so helpful. Thank you so much.
Please take your time. This Los Angeles estate is full to the brim with fine antiques and it is going to take a few weeks before we are ready to open the doors.
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I added a bit more info in my post above for you to search on
m
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Thank you. I am ON it! ;D ;D ;D
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http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH200/#
this one is in The Broadfield House collection also purple.
Charles Hajdamach says in his British Glass 1800-1914 regarding Stevens and Williams page 216 that 'Dolce Relievo' appeared in 1884. It consisted of a cream ground with a purple top layer etched with acid'.
However
THE CRYSTAL YEARS A tribute to the Skills and Artistry of STEVENS AND WILLIAMS ROYAL BRIERLEY CRYSTAL (R.S. Williams-Thomas) a book about Stevens and Williams says
'The body of the article was self coloured alabaster in an ivory shade of pale cream. This was then cased in a variety of colours: cherry red, green, and light purple are typical examples.'
neither mention pink however The Crystal Years says it was made in a variety of colours. I think there is one example in the V&A that is pink iirc, but would need to find it to be sure.
m
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If it helps, they bought this in 1981 from Elsa Grimmer(maybe you know her?)
who described it as:
"pink carved birds of paradise on ivory ground circa 1880s"
"dolce relievo" and Steven and Williams technique
"rare"
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sorry, forgot to add:
"both pieces have all ground decor"
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I'm not sure how reliable online attributions are gong to be because we have this signed Webb piece I found earlier
https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2257/lots/6 and this unsigned piece "Stevens and Williams" piece http://humlernolan.com/Auctions/December-2012/Art-Glass/0518
According to Grover and Grover talking about Stevens and Williams in English Cameo Glass "Dolce Relievo was the soft sounding name given to beautiful vases with an ivory coloured body and an outer casing of different colours, generally light purple or cream. They were decorated in low relief by the various etchers. Coloured casings were used on light backgrounds, with the ground 'peckled' or 'chipped' and the design in relief in colour. Silver mounts were used on many pieces, done by silversmiths of Sheffield or Birmingham."
I'm not sure any of the pictures that come up online as Dolce Relievo have a peckled bakcground...
Grover has one piece on p121 attributed to S&W that might fit and another S&W attributed piece on p38 that is definitely peckled. Having been right through the book (dribble, dribble), I still think the colours are more Webb
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OMG!
They are exactly the same…. ??? ??? ??? ???
right now I am concentrating on finding the same or similar pattern. Is that a good idea?
It's odd to me because the color seems Webb but the handle seems S&W to my untrained eye...
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ok, I have an update for the Grover and Grover comments (my underlining in Christine's quote below)
CH British Glass 1800-1914 (2009) says of S&W
Dolce Relievo was introduced in 1884. (see post earlier for the full paragraph where there is no description of the background of the pieces at that point)
He goes on to say later in that section
'Engraving skills developed on rock crystal glass were often transferred to cameo decoration. One specific technique was the chipped, hammered or 'pecked' background which appears as a frosted or cracked surface. Production was low because it involved chipping the glass against a rotating S-shaped metal tool, fixed on teh end of a spindle and set in an engraving lathe. In the Stevens and Williams books this decoration, patented as a 'chiselled' ground, first appears as pattern 12981 on 24 September 1887(Colour Plate 18)'
'According to Grover and Grover talking about Stevens and Williams in English Cameo Glass "Dolce Relievo was the soft sounding name given to beautiful vases with an ivory coloured body and an outer casing of different colours, generally light purple or cream. They were decorated in low relief by the various etchers. Coloured casings were used on light backgrounds, with the ground 'peckled' or 'chipped' and the design in relief in colour. Silver mounts were used on many pieces, done by silversmiths of Sheffield or Birmingham."'
So, from CH's book it is seen that Dolce Relievo pieces without the peckled/pecked backgrounds were produced between 1884 and 1887.
No update on the colour yet.
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That's very interesting.
So, if that is correct this was made between 1884 and 1887. That should narrow the search a bit.
B
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no :)
if that info in CH's BG is correct and it turns out this piece is by Stevens and Williams then it could have been made between 1884-1887. However there is nothing to say they didn't still make pieces without the peckled/pecked/chipped background after 1887.
All the information does is prove that there could have been some Dolce Relievo pieces without the pecked background, whereas the Grover and Grover article seemed to say that for it to be Dolce Relievo, it had to have the pecked background. ( I hope I understood that correctly Christine?)
m
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OH….. oops. Of course, I should have realized that.
B
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We're just going round in circles really. Interesting the original seller said "Steven and Williams technique". There was no real attribution
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Yes, except that it establishes that Dolce Relievo pieces can be made without having to have a pecked/peckled background.
And yes re 'technique'. A match is needed. I think lots of it 'points' to Stevens and Williams but there are no exact matches to any of it and the pink is still an issue.
m
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Yep.
I think this couple and many unsuspecting people like them were taken to the cleaners by a lot of unscrupulous antique dealers in the 1980s.
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It is a very beautiful piece and very beautifully made. Cameo was/is not 'easy' to make for a variety of reasons.
Hopefully someone will be able to help more with identifying it for you.
In the meantime, it sounds 'picky' since your photographs are lovely, but can you try and get photographs against a plain white background and also include some very clear close ups of the decoration. That might help establish whether it is two or three layers and also how the decoration was actually done. Also do you have a UV blacklight? if you do, it could help establish whether the white base is uranium glass or not.
It could also be worth contacting the V&A or The Corning to see if they can give you further help.
m
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I can bring the piece home on Tuesday to take photos. My husband is a professional. I just took those with my iPad.
It does make me nervous to move something that valuable….
I have contacted a few museums and dealers in my time and I find they are 90% not interested in helping unless there is a LOT of $$$$ involved. I will take your suggestion to heart though. What is the V&A?
B
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yes I know :) always tricky. I try and have my wits about me when photographing and make sure I put it away again immediately just in case.
I don't know how valuable it might be, but it is beautiful and unusual. And it needs to make the right price for what it is, so perhaps just needs a bit more investigating.
The Corning might be your best bet to try and see if they 'recognise' it or are up for helping id it. Otherwise the V&A is the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. The contact for the 'glass' section should come up on their home page on the site.
I've just been through the Bonhams search for Thomas Webb and Stevens and Williams and nothing similar has come up unfortunately.
It would be nice to see some more close up pictures though to get more detail.
m
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Thank you so much, Flyingfree. I will call them both on Monday.
Brenda
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I found this S&W piece:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/184647653445199195/?e_t_s=button&e_t=8756eac3c17b4c4ca860d7dfd12b93fc&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=send_pin_user_share_conversation_share_conversation_pin_share_conversation_pin_to_user
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No, you found something attributed to S&W. Doesn't mean it is. It's similar but I don't think it's the same quality as yours.
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Thank you, Christine.
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The rim decoration on this piece is similar:
http://www.rubylane.com/item/820292-G-185/Vessiere-Nancy-Cameo-Glass-Art?utm_source=thefind&utm_medium=productfeed
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It's hard to know where to start on these things. Sometimes they do turn out to be something other than originally thought. But you do have to start somewhere to eliminate and investigate.
My feelings as a 'start point' are that it's 'probably' English and probably not the same 'range' as the perfume bottle, if that is Stevens and Williams ( I agree with Christine your cup and saucer look better quality, somehow as though they have more work in them).
It could take a little while, but hopefully someone else will also happen along who can add to the discussions and information Christine and I have found.
Meanwhile I spent the evening watching my son swimming and reading a bit more about acid etching and how it started, how difficult the technique was to develop and use. Not easy at all. I would like to write a good portion of it out here as then it helps understand the real difficulty of using acid etching in the 1800's but it's too long, and to precis it would not do it justice.
And that's if your cup and saucer turn out to be acid etched and not also carved in some way. Because sometimes these pieces were acid etched and then also carved. Looking forward to seeing more pictures. And another thing that Christine mentioned was to find out if the white glass is uranium glass by using a uv blacklight. That could also help.
I really hope the V&A or the Corning can help you more. In the meantime I would still be investigating Dolce Relievo or similar (perhaps Webb's did do something like this.)
m
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You found the pink scent bottle with the seller saying they'd been told it wasn't French but was Stevens and Williams.
I've found the same model in blue, identified as Baccarat
http://www.antiquecolouredglass.info/images/BlueScrollScent.JPG
I think this demonstrates how difficult it can be and how much work has to go in to trying to identify something like the cup and saucer.
I'm afraid I don't have the Baccarat book and there is no source for the id for either the pink or blue on those sites unfortunately. It isn't helpful that the seller of the blue one has many pieces by Stevens and Williams, therefore one automatically 'thinks' , ah, if the bottle was S&W they would know.
It's less than helpful that the seller of the pink says for their source, 'someone told them' it was S&W.
This is a link to a Baccarat pair of vases dating to 1867. They are acid etched.
http://www.adrianalan.com/FullScreenZoom.aspx?photos_zoom=AlanAdrphoto/Alan2272008T173953.jpg
I am hopeful you will get more information over the coming weeks. It's such a beautiful piece.
I think if you contact the Corning you might send a link to the Dolce Relievo vase in the Broadfield House museum, as well as the one found online attributed as Dolce Relievo, along with pictures of your cup and saucer.
m
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Actually, looking at that pink perfume bottle that you linked to, I think it demonstrates a two layer piece, pink over white, and shows what the outline looks like if you acid etch or carve back the pink and polish the 'raised' layer outlines of what's left of the pink. It doesn't have the 'contrast' that your cup and saucer do. So I am wondering if your cup and saucer might be three layer.
m
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Here are the photos I was able to take yesterday. They are taken in natural light.
The cup and saucer are not uranium glass as they do not glow under black light.
I was able to feel a change in height from the dark to the light pink.
I hope this helps.
Thanks again,
B
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Thanks for the further information and the photos.
I'm afraid I can't help much more. For me even with the close up photos it's very hard to tell how it was made unless you have it in your hand.
I cannot tell how this might have been made as I don't have that experience, but in my humble opinion, it looks as though it has been cased in three layers, white, cased in pale pink, cased in dark pink. In terms of the process, it might be possible that the outline of the decoration all over was achieved by
- acid etching the background areas back to white leaving a dark pink pattern.
- Then polishing the dark pink pattern all over
- Then carving the dark pink off in areas back to the pale pink (I'm unsure whether cameo makers would work on an already polished surface though)
- Leaving the dark pink highlights glossy
and showing the pale pink as an unpolished/cut surface?
and showing the white as a mattish acid etched surface?
Did you notice whether the white and pale pink were as shiny as the dark pink highlights btw?
I think it is a beautiful piece and if it has been hand carved as well, you need specialist help to identify it so it sells at the right price. Actually either way I think you need specialist help for it :) I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. Hopefully Christine might have found more information for you.
I will continue to look for any examples that might help and come back if I find any.
Would you please let us know if The Corning Museum comes up with any id for it? I'd love to know who made it. I still think the large polished pontil mark and the colour might point to Stevens and Williams, but that is just a guess.
m
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I promise I will let you know when I hear back.
No, the dark pink is the only really shiny part. I would say it does look to be handworked. Yes, to the last…. shiny to unpolished to matte surfaces.
Thanks again,
B
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You're welcome.
I thought you might find this book interesting. It's a superb book and if you go to the page 11 in the book it explains about how cameo is done :)
http://d3seu6qyu1a8jw.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/collections/DA/DAD1DEEE-4B86-491B-B804-69C7B1F46B40.pdf
m
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Here is the response from Corning:
Dear Ms. Freeman,
Thank you for your email below. I have attached some pages that may be somewhat relevant, from the Ray and Lee Grover 1980 publication entitled ‘English Cameo Glass’.
Page 8 of this publication provides a good description of ‘dolce relievo’, while the other two pages contain a sketch (taken from George Woodall’s sketchbook), and a vase, top left (either Stevens & Williams or Thomas Webb & Sons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Webb_%26_Sons) that are somewhat similar by way of some of the motifs employed.
However, as it is an unsigned it might not be by Stevens & Williams or Thomas Webb & Sons, but it is in the style of.
I am sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to be certain vis-à-vis identification without actually handling the piece in person.
As for valuations, due to the fact we are a museum we cannot provide appraisals on objects.
There should be a list of valuers and appraisers/fine art dealers in your local yellow pages who may have a specialty in glass.
Another excellent publication that may be of help is the following: http://www.cmog.org/library/british-glass-1800-1914-charles-hajdamach?search=library_collection%3A8b926109a463954f5cdae2d0a23c4015&page=3
Sincere regards,
Audrey Whitty.
Dr. Audrey Whitty,
Curator of European and Asian Glass,
The Corning Museum of Glass,
1 Museum Way,
Corning,
New York,
NY 14830,
USA.
www.cmog.org
Direct Line: +1 607 438 5226
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Unfortunately, I don't know how to attach the pdf she sent along. Maybe you already have the book and can see them there.
I can't believe she actually answered me. You glass collectors are restoring my faith in the kindness of strangers and humanity in general.
Thank you ALL so very much,
B
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Flyingfree,
Thank you so much for attaching the book. The people that carved this glass were incredible artists. The work must have been backbreaking.
I have a new appreciation for it. When I started looking at the cup and saucer I couldn't believe it could possibly be worth $2300. Today I am wondering how it could be worth so little….
B
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yes exactly :)
And when you read about how long it took to carve the pieces ... well, enough said.
I don't have the book but would love to see that pieces she quotes.
I've opened my email box (a little envelope on the left hand side under my user name). If you have time and can find a way to attach it to an email to me via the board system, that would be much appreciated.
Are they closer in design than the one in Broadfield House museum?
I'm going to dig out some information on that one if I can. And will get back to you.
m
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I've been having a think and looked closely at the plate for clues. I wonder if the things that might help to identify this piece for B are the circular motifs on the plate (the one in the centre and also there are three around the outside) and also the birds? The birds all appear to be different. I've asked B to add pictures of the birds on both the cup and the plate, so they can be checked against each other to see if they are all different.
Close ups of the motifs might help as well, as I 've found a couple of vases from Stevens and Williams that have this type of motif on as well as an engraved William Fritsche goblet for Thomas Webb that has an exotic bird on in a similar style.
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH201/
http://www.antiquecolouredglass.info/Thomas%20Webb%20&%20Sons.htm
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST75/
m
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Here are the birds on the saucer:
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Here are the birds on the cup:
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Here are the medallions:
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Here are some extreme close ups that may not translate well to this forum but I'm going to try anyway: